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Any response to Billy Strange Saying the Cars are too "bouncy"

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by happyloaf, Jan 5, 2021.

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  1. John Hargreaves

    John Hargreaves Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I like the ones that crash into the AI and then blame the sim :(
     
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  2. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    200% agree on this post! Having raced cars in real life doesn't mean everything you say or do is logical, they can still be very stupid ideas: his ideas on how to test sims are just bonkers no matter how experienced a driver he is. If, like Renato just said, he can't be bothered to set up his FFB, car setup, camera settings and all before he does a review than his review is just a bunch of rubbish, because it does not really represent what the sim is or can reasonably be set to be. Therefore the conclusions he draws are most likely all wrong or anyway offset by the lack of preparation (by the way he still has issues with the third tab of the garage since he couldn't spot ABS and TC apparently)...
     
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  3. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Cause ACC tire model is a sticky brick... Not disrespect meant, it is a very cool sim but it's like that.
     
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  4. Simmo99x

    Simmo99x Active Member

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    Exactly people find it so easy to blame anything and everything but themselves...
    Just 5 seconds into his video and its blatently obvious he hasn't even bothered adjusting the camera settings from the amount of movement/bouncing effect.
    But would be in no doubt the first to complain if the setting wasn't available.
    With a little bit of effort, 5 mins and the camera can be set identical to ACC/ IR/RF etc.
    And all the so called bouncing effect has gone.
    Trust me if I can figure this out anyone can.
     
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  5. tlsmikey

    tlsmikey Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Not a huge fan of Billy, but from time to time he hits the right points for me. I disagree with the people here who think that tinkering with setups should be expected though. I'm willing to bet at least 70% of the user base will never tinker with setups.

    One of the best features of ACC is to simply start the game and pick a "wet, standard or aggressive" setup. The aggressive setup being reasonably competitive at high levels even. This is something all sims should consider moving forward.
     
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  6. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing AMS2 Club Member

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    You shouldn't need to tinker with setups to be able to drive the car around a track without spinning, but you shouldn't then go and judge a car without even trying to make it more drivable if you don't like it. There is a difference between just using something, and making a video on it talking about how it drives.
     
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  7. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    It is simply unrealistic: every track is different therefore most of the settings must be different starting from the tire pressures up.
    If they are not different than the simulator is not really a simulator... That is why what he says is just so silly to start with (thinking about that magic number of 27.6-27.7 psi hot pressure for every track and for every car front and rear in the golden standard of simulators no matter what the downforce is.. How to explain it? :rolleyes:)
     
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  8. Brainbug

    Brainbug Inside Virtual Reality AMS2 Club Member

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    i second your opinion and point of view.

    AMS2 is a Reiza Thing. Opinions a great and I guess very welcome, but that’s it. The devs know what they are doing.

    we all learned from the past, the even real life racing champions giving opinions get called „paid“.

    from PC2 production-time I remember Rene Rast for example, multi champion in Porsche cup and multi champion in DTM.
    that all does not matter, because the internet mob will always twist things.
    So indeed, listen to opinions is helpful, but I guess the trick is To filter and take just the useful part.

    as long I see Reiza is doing THIS in excellence. Keep it up Reiza.:cool:
     
  9. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    That is the benefit of having only a couple of classes and a limited number of tracks in your sim tho - when you have literally thousands of possible permutations thats a bit more difficult. That is one of the advantages of a having a sim with a narrower scope - the con side of course is that you cant jump from a kart to a truck, and then to a 90s GT1 for a few laps in historical Hockenheim - or even mix them altogether in some whacky mashup :)

    This is another point that often goes amiss in sim racing discussions - even tho they are both games in the same genre, theyre not necessarily aiming to provide the same thing and often have some advantages and disadvantages inherent to their design choices - users can choose what they prefer or play the different games for the different things they offer :)
     
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  10. happyloaf

    happyloaf New Member AMS2 Club Member

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    One of the points I agree with Billy on is that default setups should stable since many (myself includes) lack the skill/knowledge to tune. Or have cars provided with 2-3 default setups similar to the old NR2003.
     
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  11. TekNeil

    TekNeil Take me back to the 2.4l, twin 50 weber days...

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    I for one appreciate some give/bounce in the tyres and on the tracks. Not all cars handle like skateboards (GT3 I'm lookin' at you in other sims). Although the GT3 in AMS2 are the first I've ever actually enjoyed properly in any game/sim, and that's a big deal for me. (Normally dislike them greatly/Find them boring).

    As far as default setups, I just hope for good all round driveability as best as the devs can manage, especially looking from a potential league (Fixed default) setup. And then on the more caual side, I don't tend to have the time to play with setups...
     
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  12. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    I for one liked the bouncing - not the Porsche lol but the rest, and the legacy screen bounce. I didn't expect the bouncing to be that pronounced for ever. But I never figured on a 1:1 rep, though of course a game of this nature can definitely use the reputation for that.

    Must have riled up the big boss if my comment got deleted and the confirmation bias had already set in before that. I wonder this, its not a trouble since this is the games/company sounding board and not my place. BUT! there was a Tiff needle video in this thread? Was that this thread I think it was and where did it go? Because cars were bouncing in real life.

    While I do not agree with censorship from a personal perspective - I do agree with it from a commercial one

    So I must state - this is NOT about billy - that would be 'libel'... and I like the guy and the honesty - but sometimes people criticize to be 'consumed' by the structure - I.e we see it in graphics cards lol...yes...if they play contrary for a while they can become a target and thus gain sponsorships if they play ball. It beats a dissenting voice. You can get case study's on this - also when sponsors come but the ametuers do not play ball properly (got to kick those goals for your paymasters), well, the sponsorship will be pulled.

    Other times its honest. Its youtube so its about views and whatever makes it worth their while. For Billy - be glad he wants to impart his racing experience, because thats an agenda. He wants to share and does not expect anything from Automobilista 2... see

    The saying is true: haters are fans too. fans in waiting.


    The tasks pile up. Glad to know those things then. The video showed cars literally bouncing.
    __

    I wonder as to the confirmation bias though - we must allow Billy to have his opinion and lets be honest its hard to refute its an opinion - pragmatically people may disagree with it, but its true they bounced. And cars became hard to drive.

    The reasonable reaction should be the criticism is warranted and indeed welcome and that was the experience - he bought the product, likes it, and called it out on that point.

    I for one agree with the O.P.

    A lot of people who play these games may not be old enough to drive a car yet. Doing 60km/hour is different from 150. Take any regular road tire up to 120+ and you better hope you have the air in the them, etc and the sidewall will falter.

    It is different so I like how he states that and that he is not being paid.

    Opinions like that are not always absolutes though. People can change their mind and life is about having a good time in these things. You do not have to adopt Billy's thoughts on things. But confirmation bias is a real thing. The reason why its even a thing is because we have eyes and ears - and we SAW it bounce but whether thats the reason he is not enjoying the title as much along with the very active car movements, have to ask him.

    I am not drawing any conclusions from him just on this and I don't mind watching the vids actually but I like contrary opinions - they are great.

    I saw it just then Renato mentioned the confirmation bias in another aspect, he said - PC1/2 had same head movement - but NOT a problem then...

    Lets not assume Billy is trying to give us a 1:1 rep of the world, he is just giving his impressions. His "i drove a car" comments are fine but they are to appeal to authority, and lets face it, he did drive cars fast. I do not know how much that means but it does give him some perspective. He would probably only want us to say "take it for what its worth" I can say that about it because I remember him saying take it for what its worth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  13. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Double post but for a good reason. I took the v8s the oulton park fosters a short course. a blast. and maybe billy should do such a thing if he wants that predictable liveliness,

    So maybe some thing that can be done is to have scenarios' like that listed in game, or cars listed with tracks that work well for them or some other special case and a set up tip - of course with so many cars and tracks its not possible i think for the devs to sit down and wonder how people would like to drive etc (ACC is just one type of car) so it could be a good addition. Or limiting.

    Or it may be pandering to a segment that would not benefit so much in a positive way from it - for most people I would think making it tricky and setting the bar on the work-needed side so people get stuck into knowing that and it can be more satisfying...but its a reason more casual games get more players - not everyone wants that. So I do not know the merits but food for thought in this discussion.

    I do not know why ACC took the decision to do what they did with setups apart from them just trying something - for myself it was most unexpected. It has the tendency I believe to make the connection to or the understand of the car a bit more vague. Thats not going to set back someone like Billy though who soon comes to grips with cars.

    edit: So, too - when thinking about it - of course the brand is the brand and thus those cars are known to be a certain way and I can see why they would make the setups on-demand; people are paying to drive those cars how 'they're driven'. But its probably not the fit for a game as diverse as AMS2 where you can take v8 sedans around Oulton park and mp4's around Bathurst; hence the counter-suggestion.

    Another one is I don't know why Football manager doesn't do scenario's or team suggestions/insights to less known teams in-game - they probably do it somewhere else. Of course dirt iirc does a weekly challenge and a points/progression system. Its kind of hand holding, but in other ways an interesting side-light; myself can't say I have ever done one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  14. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing AMS2 Club Member

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    Just to make sure you understand my point here, I have no problem if somebody has an opinion contrary to mine and what the reason for that is, we all have our tastes. It's OK to not like something.

    I'm questioning Billy's methods, and his "commitment" for lack of a better term, how he arrives at his opinions, how much work he puts into his videos. I like him, but it's not great quality material he puts out at the moment. Seems like the spark is gone.
     
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  15. SlowPoke80

    SlowPoke80 Active Member

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    He drove in circles in the dirt for a while, and now he thinks he knows something about real cars and tracks.
     
  16. Gagaryn

    Gagaryn Out To Lunch AMS2 Club Member

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    I fear he doesn't understand his own points. Every post is a rambling stream of consciousness that goes nowhere and makes no point. It's like Hunter S. Thompson started sim racing.
     
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  17. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    He's a human, what do you expect?

    However, his experience of racing probably trumps most of the people here on this forum, even though it's on dirt and not tarmac - shame of shames! I neither like nor dislike the man, but I do admire that he says what he thinks - it makes sense to him, and the freedom to say what you want is important, whether it's bollocks or not, so long as it's not insulting or hurtful.
     
  18. oez

    oez Mayor of Long Beach AMS2 Club Member

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    This would be a good addition later once car dynamics aren't changed as often. Right now it would just double the work when shared components are changed. And they have changed often thus far. Just see how often we are told to reset to default setups.

    Maybe stable and aggressive setups for all cars where enough changes can be made to justify it.

    Stable could have more ride height and bump absorption ability as well to counter the bouncy tracks.

    Aggressive could be a starting point for advanced car control including not being suitable for rocky drives.
     
  19. steelreserv

    steelreserv Well-Known Member Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I don't think his comments were insulting, however they were misleading. Its not lost on me that there has been a vocal crowd within the 'sim' community that have been spoiled by ACC with regards to setups. For better or worse, AMS2 is judged by the the standard set by ACC and he definitely has tapped into that crowd and is giving them what they want to hear.

    I disagree with it on a fundamental level though and I mean no disrespect or to throw shade at ACC or its fans. I simply (strongly) prefer AMS2 precisely because we have the ability to really get into setup work. Which arguably is a big part of sim racing. If every title followed ACCs path (super simple in some ways, and virtually inaccessible in others), this would simply go away, and that would be a shame.

    Its understandable that people want to be given a setup that is great and just race and if you're not fast you know its you, so you can focus on driving.

    But I will tell you, understanding the fundamentals of setups has helped me tap into the essence of the cars and that has made me a 10x better driver.
     
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  20. jo_siffert

    jo_siffert New Member AMS2 Club Member

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    IMO is this the right way - you have a nice base setup (easy or aggressive) and you are able to refine your driving to be fast without worrying about completely "wrong" values in your setup you have when you leave the pits. When you reach alien times by 1-2 seconds its fine...

    Sure - but not everyone is able or willing to self teach yourself how to setup your car - and don't forget about exploits...

    Anyway, happy new year everyone :)
     
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