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Is setup tinkering a part of sim racing in general?

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Vedixszsz, Dec 22, 2021.

  1. Kevin del Campo

    Kevin del Campo Active Member

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    Im not into making set ups at all and I honestly couldnt care less, but theres tons of people who love it and I think its nice to have t as an option for those people.

    Personally in AMS2 Ill just find a car that works for me or I might get a setup from the leaderboards and stick with it. Because the more I mess around with it the less sure I am if its my driving or the setup thats lacking.

    For the same reason I use CDA setups in ACC. Even tho it definitly makes me faster I mostly started doing it so I wouldnt doubt the car anymore and focus more on the driving part.
     
  2. Vedixszsz

    Vedixszsz New Member

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    I have come to the conclusion that the GT4 Porsche just plain sucks. At least in AMS2 it does, i drove it in ACC and over there its very driveable.

    The GT3 and GTE Porsche are a million times better. Even the Carrera Cup cars are better.

    The GT4 Porsche vs the GT4 Maclaren is not even fair even though they should be competing, thats how much it sucks.
    The issue is the brakes, you need to re-learn a track just for this car. A balanced brake bias helps a little bit but its still a terrible drive.
    If anyone got some magical setup changes for it im all ears.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
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  3. Kim

    Kim Mr. Andersen in SIM AMS2 Club Member

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    this has helped me get started making setups
     

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  4. McClutch

    McClutch Well-Known Member

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    you are absolutely right!
     
  5. Jugulador

    Jugulador Well-Known Member

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    GT4 is supposed to be harder than GT3 to drive. These car's rears are loose, very sensible to throttle inputs, not very gripe nor stable at braking. These are supposed to teach you how to drive.

    You can make these more stable by setup, but will also be way slower. The best you can do is to learn how to drive better/properly.

    ACC is very hyped... this game's cars only drive okish until you start to loose grip and Unreal Engine 4 lag on tire calculation. This is a game I really can't understand why people take as a positive reference. I can understand even why people like rFactor 2 and it's cr4p tire sploits... ACC have nothing. Better to play the old AC, that have good GT4 cars that behave closer to AMS2, btw.
     
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  6. steelreserv

    steelreserv Well-Known Member Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    What a shame if a sim neutered the natural balance of a car for the sake of 'drivability' and as a consequence, that drivability became a benchmark for how a car should perform in a sim.
     
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  7. stlutz

    stlutz Active Member

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    What is the problem you are having? The funny thing is that I found the Porsche GT4 to be the easiest in this class to drive and the McLaren to rather more difficult. Doesn't mean I'm right--just means that characteristics that one person struggles with aren't the same ones that others do.

    Common changes for me in a lot of cars are to move the brake bias forward by a couple of percent, and to reduce the number of clutches. If I still need adjustments, then I'll tweak ARBs next.

    I don't love tweaking setups, but once you've done it some you can generally get a car to where you can drive it pretty quickly. Obviously making something optimal for a given car/track/weather combination can take a lot of time.

    In the other sims I play (Raceroom, ACC), some of the defaults are very good for me; others take more work.

    Bottom line, setup tinkering doesn't have to be a part of sim racing. If you don't want to mess with them then you'll instead try different cars and pick the ones you like best out of the box--regardless of the sim. Messing with setups can be fun when you take a car that's hard to drive and turn it into something you can do at least relatively well with. In ACC, the Honda NSX is notoriously difficult--doing a bunch of work on it to make it suitable for me was fun--for a while at least. It's not a very competitive car overall so I ultimately moved on, LOL.

    Finally, it is worth noting that I believe default setups are still WIP overall. Not all classes/cars got done for the initial 1.3 release. So, hopefully better ones are coming for the ones that didn't.
     
  8. Marius H

    Marius H Internal Beta Tester Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I suggest stop driving GT3/GTE's. First do 20-30 hours of Formula Trainer Novice. Then 20-30 hours of Formula Vee. Work your way up to the Caterhams (total 100 hours). for god's shake I would do Mini FWD and Mini modern as well, again a 50 hours together. Now there's the Lancers to try. They are AWD. Another 30 hours.

    So you've mastered all the beginner cars that taught you lots of different styles and characters. You can embark onto driving all the Brasilian content. Which are 200 - 300 hours or even more. Once mastered them. Go Caterham 620. Go Formula historic and modern. 200 hours later pick GT4. Then finally at the end of the so many hours. Perhaps 1500 - 2000 in total.. You can pick GT3/GT4.

    ps. Ideally you want to install RBR + NGP 6 as well and learn some rallying. Rallying can also teach you a lot and you use that at circuit-racing in some ways.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
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  9. stlutz

    stlutz Active Member

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    Problem is, exactly nobody has ever done as you have suggested. From a sim racing perspective, GT3s for tin tops and F3/F4 cars are the best ones to start with. In the real world drivers don't start in those cars due to money. GT3 are popular regardless of sim because they are very accessible [fake] cars to drive.

    I haven't tried the Lancers recently, but at least in the past they have been among the hardest cars in the game. Caterhams are also rather challenging. Not that they are bad, but they are definitely not where I'd point people to as step 2 on the journey. In AMS2, stock cars are probably the next best place to go after GT3 (at least in tin tops). In open wheel, F3-->CART probably makes the most sense.

    It does newer people no good to point them to content that everybody else only went to once they have been doing it a while.
     
  10. Marius H

    Marius H Internal Beta Tester Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Yes, sure. But I would suggest going in hard and difficult and then ease it down with GT3/GTE's or/and modern Formula so the driver knows all the in's and outs of racing. Lots of people complain non-GT3's are so hard because they expect every car to handle like a GT3, lol.
     
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  11. Vedixszsz

    Vedixszsz New Member

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    Yeah no guys i get what you are saying but some cars in ams2 are just wrong. I have spent two days now trying to figure out why the GT4 Cayman is so bad and its not so much that its bad, its wrong. Watched lots of videos on the real world car and you simply can not drive it the same way you do in real life, if you do you die.

    One thing that doesnt give me much confidence in Reiza is how much their own iterations change. Take the Sprint Race Car for example, i remember when i played the game a year or so ago it used to be near impossible to spin out in that car. Now however its way more nervous. Why is there such a big difference on the same car? Its supposed to be a sim. If you dont have everything needed to make an accurate representation of the real world thing, dont put it in the game until you do. Quality always beats quantity.

    As for @Marius H
    I appreciate the suggestion but im not sure what the point of that is. I should be able to do gt's in ams2 straight of the bat no problem. ACC has only gt cars.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
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  12. Koen_Sch

    Koen_Sch Active Member

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    You keep using words such as bad, indrivable and wrong, but those don't really convey a specific issue. There are some very knowledgeable people on this forum, and even in this thread, who can/are willing to help you, if you give useful feedback.

    What makes the car feel wrong to you?
    What makes these cars undrivable to you?
    What makes these cars feel so bad to you?

    Just making a comparison to ACC is also not very useful, as they are very different games, especially under the hood (pun intended). Also ACC is not the single best simulator every, so taking this as a point of comparison is not necessarily valid.

    About your point on the sprint car, how do you know the more stable version is more realistic? I agree it has become less stable/grippy over time, but I don't see how this is definitely less realistic. I get that this might be frustrating, but to just call it unrealistic is simply unfair.

    I'm sure there is a way to make this game enjoyable to you, but you have to be open to help, and especially, and I can't emphasize this enough, provide specific feedback on issues. Otherwise we won't be able to help.
     
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  13. Vedixszsz

    Vedixszsz New Member

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    Specifically the GT4 Cayman is to unstable (the M4 is bad as well with basically the same issues). As this thread suggests i dont know the ins and outs, i dont know the details, the numbers behind it. The brakes are really really bad, you cant brake where the real life car brakes and where the GT4 Maclaren brakes. You kind of sort of can if you tune it a bit but the difference between the Cayman and the Maclaren is night and day. While i havent driven either in real life i have a hard time believing that a car would behave so different in the same professional racing class. The Maclaren smokes it in lap time of course but i dont really care about that, im solely interested in the drive.

    Simulator suggests its simulating real life. ACC and AMS2 are both simulators. The logical conclusion is that there should be a lot of carry over. The same car shouldnt drive fundamentally different.
    As i said i watched many videos of the real life car and im inclined to say that the drive in ACC LOOKS closer to the real life thing than AMS2.

    And thats just the thing, i dont know which one is more realistic BUT the big change in the Sprint Race car also seems to suggest that Reiza doesnt know either.
    If we are just guessing and going with close enough with surface level tweaks then hell i could do that. Am i wrong in expecting more from a simulator?

    Also, i get that many people like this game and its their favourite sim or whatever but im just expressing my experience with it and opinion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
  14. Koen_Sch

    Koen_Sch Active Member

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    Ok, first of two things:
    I just read my previous comment and noticed that it might come across as aggressive, which is not the point here.
    Secondly, and I know this has been set time and time again, make sure you delete your ams setup folder in your documents folder. Especially since you mentioned you played the game a long time ago.

    On to your comments.
    It's not about the numbers or details. You mention the McLaren "smokes it". I don't know what you mean by smoking it. About the Cayman, you say it's unstable and that the brakes are "bad".

    Ok, where is the car unstable? Is on the throttle? In the corners? If so where in the corner (entry/mid/exit)? Or specifically on the brakes? When you say the brakes are "bad", do you mean they are not potent enough, or do they cause a loss of grip?

    You also point out that both AMS and ACC are Sims. Well, hate to brake it to you, but both are terrible. It is very hard to actually simulate the real thing. Both are approximations using assumptions and models. So using either as a baseline is not really possible.

    You also mention that you cannot believe the difference between the McLaren and the Porsche. Well, these cars are very different. Keep in mind that the GT4/GT3 class consists out of many different kinds of cars, by design. So it is possible that these cars handle very differently, even in the same class.

    Having driven both Sims, I do agree there is a difference, but I wouldn't call it fundamental. Whilst they do feel different, driving techniques definitely transfer across the games.

    On your final point, euhm... What? They are not guessing, and I am sure you can't just do a similar, or better job. So please refrain for these statements, because they are not very constructive.
     
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  15. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    The Cayman CS is my favourite GT4 car in pretty much every sim except AMS2 - I've never been quite sure why that is, it just feels a bit unresponsive and snappy compared to something like AC/ACC.

    The main problem with the brakes it that ABS doesn't function properly in any of the GT cars currently. Even with ABS 7-8 you lock easily with 90% brake pressure so threshold braking is mandatory. I would probably just turn ABS off and learn to drive without it. The tyres are hard but there isn't a general problem of grip as far as I can tell, both brake/acceleration forces (1.5g/0.7g) and cornering forces (1.6g) seem appropriate for the car. The suspension is stiff, which coupled with a high ride-height and rear-mid engine layout make it quite snappy under weight transfer. This is an issue especially in slow corner complexes, like Club at Silverstone, where it's easy to lose the rear unless you give it some throttle to stabilise the car. Maintenance throttle in general is a necessary skill to learn in AMS2, you can't just coast through slow corners with cars like this. The info screen reports a 41/59 weight distribution, which doesn't sound right to me, but who knows if that's actually true for the car as modelled.

    Verdict: Needs improvement, but not totally hopeless as it is now.
     
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  16. Vedixszsz

    Vedixszsz New Member

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    I deleted everything and re-installed the game, after which i deleted the setups folder once again just to make sure.

    What i meant by the Maclaren smoking the Cayman is in lap time, im not a good driver but i do better on the Maclaren than i do on the Cayman quite easily. A friend on mine who i would say is a very good driver also does better on the Maclaren. Public lobbies show it too, Maclarens all over the place and the Cayman is often the least seen one.

    The Cayman is unstable during braking, it locks up easy and just seems to require that you begin braking earlier than you would on the Maclaren. Its also easy to lose the back end under braking, trail braking is very dodgy with the Cayman.
    I also noticed the chevy having better brakes.
    I'd also rank a couple of the stock cars ahead of the Cayman in driveability which is crazy.

    So then when they claim they work with the manufacturers, teams, drivers etc its all nonsense if all they got is assumptions and approximations?
    Also, why are we playing terrible sims? xD
    Actually, what sim would you say isnt terrible? If any?

    They are not guessing? Assumptions is kind of guessing is it not?
    If i knew how to work with their engine and was a developer by trade i dont see why i couldnt enter parameters that make a certain car kind of sort of almost sometimes somewhat but not really resemble the real life thing. Which seems to be whats being done.

    Look, yes im a new sim racer but im also very picky and expect a certain level when a game claims to be a simulator (because otherwise the word has no meaning) especially because of how pricy sim racing is as a hobby.
    My expectations are high and maybe they shouldnt be i dont know maybe i got it backwards and this isnt what i think it is.
    I expect some kind of experience with the real life equivalent (driven it, been around it, know people who have it who say this and that etc etc). Talking to and bringing in people who know what they are talking about, no every day joes basically. Professionals. I just think that a "racing sim" should entail more than just game developers sitting on their computers coding stuff.

    But again maybe i got it backwards.
     
  17. Vedixszsz

    Vedixszsz New Member

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    This guy seems to know exactly what i have been experiencing but dont have the knowledge to put into words.
     
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  18. Koen_Sch

    Koen_Sch Active Member

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    First of all, thank you for being more specific on the issues you're having.

    You misunderstood what I meant with terrible Sims and assumptions.

    What I meant is that is practically impossible to accurately simulate real life, unless you have infinite computing power. This is why they use models to approach real life. These models are then tweaked such that they are acceptably close to real life. This is where, like you said, people with real life experience come into play. Both AMS and ACC make use of these methods. This is why is is possible that two Sims feel so different, and are likely both very different from the real life thing. This is the case for all Sims/games/whatever.

    The assumptions allow a developer, or more general developers/engineers/scientist, to make the models digestible for a gaming engine. You cannot get around assumptions, so it is unfair to say that someone who makes an assumption is just guessing.
    You have to keep in mind that, even for racing teams, getting reliable data is very difficult. Niels Heusinkveld, the simracing physics god, has made some videos on this. Again, this is true for all Sims, not just AMS.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
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  19. Vedixszsz

    Vedixszsz New Member

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    Yeah that sounds about right. And at the end of the day we cant really know for sure whats being done behind the scenes unless we are connected on the inside.

    Btw i just came across a youtube comment when i was looking for early videos on the gt3/gt4/carrera cup update in AMS2. He says that its like brake pressure goes from 50% to lock up without anything in between. Which is exactly what i would describe it like. Goes in line with what @azaris was saying as well with ABS perhaps not working properly. Its something about the braking that just doesnt feel right.

    I'll just ignore the gt4's and hope that they do something about it at some point. If there is anything wrong that is... Like i said earlier today perhaps the Cayman just plain sucks, in game and real life.
    I'd say the Camaro is the best feeling gt4 which is crazy.
     
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  20. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Active Member

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    I'd agree with this bit for sure. There doesnt seem to be much adhesion longitudinally when maximum braking and as you say the adhesion loss is sudden and apparently before the point at which it should occur. Its probably worth drilling down into this with some telemetry analysis. There's loads of people (well a few) who are capable and willing to have a look and I certainly will but prob not for a day or two.

    Its all about providing the evidence. If I, you or anyone else can return here with telemetry data that suggests braking is not performing as expected (braking trace, longitudinal acceleration, tyre grip etc) then the conversation will have more potential. Otherwise there's just too many variables. For example for every single 'identical' car between sims, there's a million hardware variables between users, variables in ffb between sims and so on. Telemetry discounts a lot of those by providing feedback on what the sim itself is doing, not the hardware.

    Anyway, find below a useful link. Its for PC1 but works fine on AMS2. Maybe start by getting some benchmark traces for a car that 'feels' right then for the car that doesnt. Basically start drilling down to see whats going on.

    pCARS Profiler (Telemetry & Analysis) [PC ONLY] [v1.6] (projectcarsgame.com)

    And just in case its all new to you, an informative video ;)

     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
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