1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Vintage formulas drivability

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Jonathan Spencer, May 3, 2020.

  1. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    415
    Likes Received:
    239
    I’ve figured it out I think. It only happens when I shift quickly. I experimented with coasting off throttle and then shifting it normal speed to the next gear while being quick to the throttle, was fine. Same thing while shifting very quickly resulted in banging off the rev limiter. I guess there’s either some kind of limitation in the software to prevent you from shifting too quickly, or it might be the reason assetto corsa has that shifter buffer factor. I can’t remember what it’s called, but it could be that ams2 is sensitive enough that when I shift super quickly it may slightly bounce out of gear momentarily as far as what the sensors see. Who knows. But if I shift slowly it works fine. It’s all about how fast I move the shifter.

    I also have realized that classic Imola is just a brutal track. Everything has a camber to it so the car always wants to shoot left or right. Kyalami is a blast because you can slide it around all over the place and have fun. Car just acts a lot more predictable there due to I imagine the surface. But it feels amazing there.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. 250swb

    250swb Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    42
    Sorry yes degrees not percent, but if somebody went to the setup I think they'd figure it was brain fade. I didn't actually say do anything to the ramp angle, never mentioned it, I said decrease the coast angle, two different things. Project Cars 2 has a very good engineering guide in which ramp and coast are dealt with separately. But with more engine braking it helps stop the understeer into the corner, the point where the car simply wants to go straight on (or switch ends) and not turn, this is different to understeer through the corner or power on understeer out of the corner. It's the problem people are having with the car just not wanting to stop and turn with some stability that needs addressing in ways other than roll bars and springs or brake bias.
     
  3. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    9,138
    Likes Received:
    8,207
    Can you show me the option in the setup menu please? I just see ramp angles for power and coast there. (a screenshot or something)

    Power and coast torque influences to diff locking force are both dealt with a ramp in the clutch diff, look at the graphic i've posted.
    There is no "ramp and coast".
    There is power- and coast-ramp angle.

    The angle of the ramp is determinating the locking force under power or coast torque.

    I think, you are heavily confusing something here...

    Engine braking should be a different dedicated setting and has high influence on car stability, yes.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  4. David Wright

    David Wright Active Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    161
    Yes, pretty much. I don't think the final drive ratio needs adjusting though. The adjustment helps in the V12 because you really don't want to use first gear if you can help it.
     
  5. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    6,096
    Likes Received:
    2,931
    The cars all work as they should (at least all the ones I have tested). Many shifts in the F-Vintage can be shifted without clutch if you are careful. The F-Classics are much more robust and other than launch and going back down to 1st gear, as long as you rev match, you can usually avoid the clutch. The F-Vintage is half-way between that robust level (that then gets morphed into sequential design and operations in later years) and road car. Even the road car can skip the clutch if the conditions are right (but a much narrower rev matching range than in a race car).

    The F-Vintage requires slow and deliberate shifts compared to more modern cars. And, for any/all, if you are not sure or not able to be careful, use the clutch for 100% avoidance of grinding and mis-shifts. When learning a new H-pattern car, I always start out using the clutch for all shifts until I get a basic control of the car and then experiment with clutch-less until I know how it behaves. So, far, all work as expected in AMS 2.
     
  6. 250swb

    250swb Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    42
    So you can see the separate adjustments in the menu, but at the same time you can't see the separate adjustments? Look this isn't about adjustments in Project cars 2, even though the principle is sound, it's about discovering why people go straight on in corners in AMS2 in the Vintage cars, to see if there is a basic modelling problem.

    Reduce the coast angle and the car becomes stable under braking, gives more engine braking, and which in turn allows you to turn into the corner under control. Reducing the coast angle may not be the fastest way around the track, but it answers to some extent a simple problem in association with other setups changes. But just saying 'this doesn't make sense' is a moot point if the underlying modelling is wrong because then nothing makes sense. It's not like Reiza aren't working their way through modelling problems with many cars and it's not denial to think there may be an underlying problem skewing the values in the code.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  7. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    9,138
    Likes Received:
    8,207
    Mate THESE ARE THE Ramp Angles for Coast and Power. "Coast angle" is "Coast ramp angle".
    Coast angle is one side of the ramp and Power angle is the other side of the ramp. BOTH are ramp angles!
    You stated this:
    A locked diff under braking (reducing coast angle) makes the car stable and more prone to understeer into corners. You have more control, but it will understeer even more, because both wheels apply similar amount of torque, this is exactly the opposite to what the solution for the user with understeer into corners would be. The changed engine braking is NOT the main influence...or better call it result, when changing clutch diff values. (Of course the coast torque comes from the engine brake though)

    You were recommending lowering coast angle (what is limiting slip between the wheels under coast torque and thereby increasing locking of the diff under coasting) to cure understeer into corners and this is factually not correct.

    The F-Vintage has some problems in my opinion, but the workwise of the diff is not one of those.

    Give me a source, that more diff lock under coasting helps against understeer turning in the car. I'm really looking forward to it.^^

    Have a read:
    Into The Red - Limited Slip Differential
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  8. 250swb

    250swb Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    42
    Good grief, I know they are BOTH ramp angles, in the effing game though they are described as RAMP ANGLE and then separately COAST ANGLE, two separate adjustments. Have you even had a look to see how they are expressed? The RAMP ANGLE in the game does not have a subsection for COAST ANGLE otherwise it would be described as RAMP COAST ANGLE, which it isn't. Now if you want a contest to see who can piss highest please feel free, but for the sake of clarity it may be worth sticking to the actual names used for each adjustment in the GAME because it is important for the sake of clarity. If you are confused still about understeer it is not that making a negative adjustment to the coast angle from default stops understeer, but that it helps (which is what I said) so you can brake in a straight line and then turn in off the throttle, not having to battle both the differential and turn in at the same time. It's not perfect, not a solution, but you either want to try and identify something going on in the code or you want to argue the toss about something to do with nomenclature that you are too lazy to check in the setup menu.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  9. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    9,138
    Likes Received:
    8,207
    OH ARE THEY?? You stated this:
    Which is the ramp angle of the coast torque direction, so NOT different. There is Power Ramp Angle and Coast Ramp Angle in degrees. You were referring to the Coast Ramp Angle.
    Are. You. Kidding. Me.? :D Lazy? Take a good look, buddy:
    20200511232408_1.jpg
    20200512000632_1.jpg
    Reducing "Coast Ramp (angle)" WHICH IS "coast angle", will limit the slip and thereby increase locking, this will lead to MORE understeer into corners! You can trail brake more controlled, but you are not curing bad turn-in, you are making it worse as a pay off.

    This is factually WRONG. I delivered you sources, you delivered nothing but calling me stuff.

    Still waiting for a source, for your statement, that more locking under coasting is reducing/helping with understeer problems.

    It's not about "pissing higher", it's about your false information. Unless you can show me the opposite, because i'm always happy to learn.^^
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  10. TekNeil

    TekNeil Take me back to the 2.4l, twin 50 weber days...

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2020
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    229
    TBH. The more I drive in AMS2, the more I'm finding that the physics on quite a few cars are needing a lot of work. Just tried the Passat. My God. Have just come off the game feeling pretty disappointed...
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    9,138
    Likes Received:
    8,207
    Copa Classic in general is pretty disappointing IMO, unfortunately.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. TekNeil

    TekNeil Take me back to the 2.4l, twin 50 weber days...

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2020
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    229
    It's a shame, car classes like that should be great fun to race. But for now, the physics are just far, far from anything realistic.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    9,138
    Likes Received:
    8,207
    I don't know, if it's unrealistic. I just find it way more lifeless than the AMS1 Copa Classic cars. Same for F-Vintage.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. TekNeil

    TekNeil Take me back to the 2.4l, twin 50 weber days...

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2020
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    229
    Aye, it's a long way off sadly. As it stands for now at least.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Avoletta1977

    Avoletta1977 Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    595
    Likes Received:
    297
    Yep, very sad.
    And the same stands for F-Vee, Opala 86, Opala Old, F-Trainer...
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    415
    Likes Received:
    239
    I have my doubts about how realistic this is. I have a hard time believing old school F1 cars had to be shifted this gently, these were purpose built racing cars after all. I am okay with requiring slower shifts or more clutch, but Im still missing a shift every 2-3 laps most of the time, and its just infuriating. Kind of takes the fun out of the drive. I've found that using the clutch vs not using the clutch doesn't seem to make much difference in terms of upshift success rate. Going down the gears always works flawlessly no matter how fast I do it. I might just end up turning on auto clutch or something.

    As far as I can tell, the clutch doesn't really do anything at all. It definitely doesnt make the upshifts more consistent. I have better luck ignoring the clutch and focusing on getting off the gas completely. If you're using the clutch coming completely off the power for the shift shouldnt be as important ,but it seems like the clutch doesnt change this, but it does change my muscle memory and approach to shifting. So I think I may just focus on clutchless shifting.

    The low speed understeer is bizarre too. Moving from a stop at full lock the car just goes straight sometimes. Very weird. At speed I think these things handle beautifully. Lapping classic Kyalami for a while is a blast, full four wheel drift into turn 1 is exhilirating.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  17. David Wright

    David Wright Active Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    161
    I was curious about this so tested it for myself. I'm afraid after trying five or more times I could not reproduce this.
     
  18. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    415
    Likes Received:
    239
    Really? Is it maybe some kind of weird setup thing?



    Also, is there a way to display clutch/gas/brake axis inputs on screen like in some other games?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 2
  19. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    9,138
    Likes Received:
    8,207
    This looks absolutely weird, tbh.
    @Renato Simioni this video above may be interesting?
    Are you throttling full?
    Switch to the telemetry hud. You can also map a button for switching HUD mode.^^
     
  20. mrsmr2

    mrsmr2 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2017
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    6
    That is an extreme version of what I had at Brands’ first bend the other day. Car just seemed to turn in mid way through the bend.

    I thought it was a groove or something but it only seemed to do it on the first lap - tyre temp related maybe?
     

Share This Page