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Camaro SS is broken

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Freeway, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. bobbie424242

    bobbie424242 Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  2. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    Ultimately it comes down to tyres rather than the car itself - the very same car can be a totally different beast depending on the quality of the tyres being used. Which again is no argument for the accuracy of the current model - will happily concede there is room for improvement in the SS tyres. But the car on top of them is generally sound in terms of basic performance and spec figures :)
     
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  3. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing AMS2 Club Member

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    Also keep in mind that (from my experience which may be flawed) certain tracks seem to have more grip than others. For example to me, Not-Estoril seems to be much more slippy than Not-Suzuka.
     
  4. Mahjik

    Mahjik Active Member

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    I think that's where there is a little discrepancy with the representation currently in AMS2 (the tires). The lateral grip seems good, in which you did quote the numbers seen which appear to be spot on. It's the way the tires behave during acceleration that is really the differentiation. I'm assuming the Ultima (street car) is on a similar tire carcass as it has the same behavior as well. It's too easy to overcome traction when accelerating currently. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't be able to overcome traction, but it's far too easy to do it currently. In AMS2, you have to be extremely careful with throttle application on the street cars. I've never been in an Ultima in real life, but I've taken many variations of Camaros around tracks over the years and you don't have to be as cautious with the throttle as you do in AMS2. As for the Ultima, the handful of YouTube videos don't show the driver being as cautious with his/her throttle application either (granted, we don't have telemetry with those videos but you can hear the response of the engine and understand how the throttle is being applied). Now, it is true that most consumer vehicles never really remove their aids even when you shut them off in the car (most cars you need to replace the ECU to truly have everything off). However, I don't think that's what's missing in this situation. I do hope this is an area Reiza can spend some investigation time.
     
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  5. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    Yep I´d agree with that assessment. Expect a few adjustments for the next update :)
     
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  6. Freeway

    Freeway Member

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    Just wanted to say how grateful I am to you and the Reiza team for listening to us "avid" drivers.
     
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  7. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    Setting the TC in the default set-up to some minimum level that the real car has (3%?) would also help.
     
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  8. Sampo

    Sampo Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I'm guessing that making the tyres more grippy on acceleration will be welcomed with angry posts of "in real life I can smoke those tyres on this car in a heartbeat". :)
     
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  9. Andy-R

    Andy-R Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Limiting it to some value or values that are best estimate for a road car TC would be nice. I dunno if that car has modes (sport/race etc) which might have different TC profiles.
     
  10. 2ndLastJedi

    2ndLastJedi Free speech matters AMS2 Club Member

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    6th gear is broken.
     
  11. Freeway

    Freeway Member

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    On the real Camaro SS, there is a competition mode which allows experienced drivers to turn both TC and Stabilitrac completely off for hard launches and/or a little sideways action. All of the driving descriptions above are with TC and Stabilitrac OFF. Why? Because the Camaro chassis handles very well without them. Still, the nannies do default to ON.

    The thing about the Camaro SS is, although fully appropriate for the road, it is also specifically built for the track. Heck, the warranty even covers limited track use (certain restrictions apply). The 1LE and ZL1 are simply further refinements to what was already an amazing track weapon. Moreover, despite the gobs of torque available, it completely transcended the muscle car category and began chasing down 911s, etc.

    If you haven't seen the Nurburgring video I posted above, take 7 minutes to sit through it right NOW. In my opinion, it is better than any cinematic chase scene. And, it explains just how bad ass a sports car the Camaro really is... The times set by this car, as well as those set by the "lesser" SS (not included in this video), got plenty folks' attention.

    For additional understanding, please see: Top 100 Nürburgring Lap Times - Nürburgring Lap Times

    How many of your favorite cars are actually faster than the 2018 ZL1? I'd wager not very many.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  12. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I agree with Renato that there is always room for improvement and slight tweaks especially when it comes to tires performance definition. I've had several performance cars including a Corvette Z06 and a Cayman R and I can say that longitudinal traction really changes a lot on road tires based on which manufacturer and type of tires you choose among those the manufacturer recommends or mounts originally on the car. Even with the exact same tires a new set is very different across time and with variations of even 10 degrees ambient temperature. With a new set of very high performance tires from Michelin even in the Corvette Z06 I could floor it from standing still or from low speed corners but not with the Goodyear sets.
    This is to say that when you see the videos of cars at the Nurburgring don't think that the cars are the same that you are driving. Because they have been set up with special tires, special pressures, they may have had heat cycles introduced into them previously to stabilize them and even some of their thread shaved off.
    Between the different Corvettes and Camaros a lot of tweaks are done to differential, brakes, ABS, TC, springs, dampers, anti-roll bars... It's like saying that a Carrera is the same as a GT3 911. Their tuning is heavily changed even though you don't see it.
    Let alone a true GT4 version of the Camaro vs the road car...
    This is to say that genuine stock cars of the same model can be already a very wide variety of different animals even though they share the same chassis and engine.
    Generally completely stock cars that you can choose at the dealer even those that are claimed to be sporty versions will not last two laps on a track...
    BTW I am a car designer :)
     
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  13. Freeway

    Freeway Member

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    Completely agree Ettore.

    Racers will always be racers. Moreover, I would not be too surprised if all of the cars on that factory list were "tweaked" a bit. So, I do believe it is important to take the times with a grain of salt. Likewise, I do believe those tires would have been cooked within two laps on the video'd run.

    In theory, though, in order to qualify for that list, it is supposed to be a factory car on factory tires.

    Either way, the driver was special for two very good reasons. First, he must have an alien level memory for the entire course. Second, the degree of confidence he had to push the car that hard is mind boggling. All in all, the whole lap was, "Nuts!"
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  14. Paul Cohen

    Paul Cohen Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Why does it wobble like it's on rubber bands?
    Why can't you change the suspension to firm it up?
    ie: setup looks like you can but nothing changes.

    To clarify, what I mean by "wobble" is if you swing the wheel/controller from side to side it seems extremely sensitive and "wobbles" a little. At low speed this also seems to be the main reason you need to baby it. I don't see this behaviour in any other car (that I can recall) and seems to be a suspension issue to me.

    It's modeled on this standard road car right?
    08:38
    driving extremely fast in a straight line is fun but pushing a car on a canyon road is even
    more fun so when you start to push it the first thing you'll notice is that this car
    does not feel as big and large and as heavy as it actually is actually feels
    kind of light on its feet of course if you were to compare this car to like a
    boxster or a cayman yes it's going to feel heavier and larger than those vehicles
    but it's surprisingly easy to hustle around the steering is just so precise
    while you do occasionally feel like you could get the rear end to come around on
    you the car actually feels quite planted most of the time for canyon driving if you want to
    improve on an already decent setup you could opt for the one le track package
    you can't actually get that with the automatic you actually have to opt for
    the manual transmission for that package but for canyon roads and on track use that's
    probably the way to go but i gotta say this 2ss with the optional six piston brakes in the front
    four pistons in the rear sway bar strut tower brace lowered suspension it's pretty good
    i'm not gonna say pretty good it's really good sure there's cars that can get through
    these corners quicker but this camaro ss has more than enough power to make pretty much any road fun
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  15. Paul Cohen

    Paul Cohen Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    ah, just saw this. Never mind, looking forward to the tweaks!
     
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  16. 2ndLastJedi

    2ndLastJedi Free speech matters AMS2 Club Member

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    How much longer do we need to wait for this track Renato? Our Camaro is close enough, I just want to try this now!
     
  17. Freeway

    Freeway Member

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    2nd: When Reiza gets the Camaro SS worked out as well as I think they can and puts it on that track... It will be transformed from AMS2 to AMSWooooooooohoooooooooo! :)

    In all seriousness, I am very much looking forward to this as well!
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  18. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    The thing is the definition of stock car for Nurburgring records is very slacked. I'm sure they were running high end tires like the Michelin Cup 2, probably already heat cycled and shaved,, different brake oils, probably different brake bias, tire pressures in a different range from what is in the owners manual, for sure they have optimized cambers and toe-in/out. Can't recall if they are allowed special TC programs.
    But anyway, the sense what I'm saying is that changing all the parameters which still are qualifying the car as "stock" for Nurburgring records purposes above can change completely the behavior of the car even if you originally picked it at any dealer (which they don't)
     
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  19. Vitor Arbex

    Vitor Arbex Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I also agree the car has very bad handling even considering street tyres, just compare it to AMS 1 when it was my favorite car to drive and now its a car that´s impossible to drive a single lap in. even with max TC on. It does need a little love. Engine/ Sound / Model are indeed great. Physics need a closer look.
     
  20. 2ndLastJedi

    2ndLastJedi Free speech matters AMS2 Club Member

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    Yesterday I spent near 2 hours lapping 2001 Silverstone in the Camaro with @sherpa25 and we had a great time :) I love the car. We had Ai at 103/75 and I managed 3rd against them.
    Sherpa and I had some great side by side fun, racing, drifting.
    I left that session saying everytime I think I've found my favourite car in AMS 2 another one pops up that takes the crown.
    This was in the latest beta.
     
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