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Tyres Tyres Tyres

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Coanda, Aug 16, 2020.

  1. F1Aussie

    F1Aussie Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Only problem then is I will lose kph. In Oz we use psi and kph.
     
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  2. Coanda

    Coanda aahhh whinge whinge f@#ken whinge.. Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    We want metric and PSI..
     
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  3. David Wright

    David Wright Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    ACC is the sim for you :) Sadly the real teams use bar but Kunos, despite their Italian origins won't let us use bar.

    Other than ACC is there any other sim that mixes imperial and metric units?
     
  4. Jebus

    Jebus The Lying Finn AMS2 Club Member

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    This.
     
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  5. Coanda

    Coanda aahhh whinge whinge f@#ken whinge.. Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    We never do anything by the book in Australia..:p:cool:

    Probably none of the others sims (checked rF2, RR, iR etc..). I think CM do however lets just leave it there..

    I much prefer PSI or kPa over bar and most other sims use this so it's familiar. Bar being such a low number and only showing to two decimal places in AMS2, I just find the other two more precise and easier to use.. It's just what I/we are used to.. With bar I always have to use a converter..

    It's ok if they don't add a tyre pressure unit option.. I'll adapt no problems..
     
  6. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    What Kunos is doing is a ridiculous fake. The correct tire pressure is function of each tire loading from downforce (which is determined by the user), static weight and weight transfer over a lap among other things including also track temp and camber/caster. All of these are changing a whole lot by track, by car and by user.
    As such the magic 27.8 psi that you should achieve in all cars, tracks and conditions on dry and the 30 psi on wet that you guys see in ACC just does not make any physical sense. It just shows that there is something not really realistic there.
    I am pretty sure Reiza has a good idea of what is the static weight contribution to tire pressure per car and the figurative area of contact that adjustments of pressures get multiplied by (per car and per axle since tires are often of different size F/R), but the rest of the information is specific to a certain track and downforce among many things that you adjust and they can't know.
    Like I tried to tell you, a good starting point for pressures is looking at the telemetry and try and keep temperatures in a proper window and their distribution reasonably even/linear which you can do through your HUD while driving without much effort. Otherwise I am pretty sure soon enough there will be plenty videos on YT to provide you with an already done setup for your favorite car/track combo.
    I think there are still things that can be improved also on AMS2 from my humble perspective in terms of how tires reach their stable temperature from the start of the session and how much grip is there when tires are "cold" but before calling others delusional I think you should know what you are talking about from the engineering point of view.
     
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  7. Budgetek

    Budgetek Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Well I planned to try to find the correct pressures by myself. So I have set the fuel for the race lenght and started with default setup. After 3 fast laps the pressures were of course our balance quite a lot. On Silverstone of course left front is loaded much more. So I decided to go to pits and adjust pressures in advanced setup in order to balance the car. But the last reading of hot pressures is not there. There is some pressure value to the left from circle with the zero in the middle but this is definitely not the last reading. Can somebody explain what this value relates to and if there is some way to read last measured values somewhere in setup page?
     
  8. Budgetek

    Budgetek Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    There is no such magic number in ACC. You have to do couple of laps which are, as you rightly mention, the function of particular driving style, track and car. After you do these laps with intial setup you have to go to setup again and adjust the initial pressure of each individual tyre so that after doing another couple of laps they are all at more or less the same pressure and the car is balanced.
     
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  9. Micropitt

    Micropitt Mediocre driver doing mediocre laps AMS2 Club Member

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    Aussies......pffffft..... :rolleyes:
     
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  10. Coanda

    Coanda aahhh whinge whinge f@#ken whinge.. Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I'm not here to discuss what other devs do or do not do for their tyre models and I do not seek a magic number to aim for all combos. I understand the point you are making. Yes there are a lot of factors to consider however there would be tyre information the devs would have which would be handy for us to some degree.

    Some additional information on the type of tyre used and what is a acceptable pressure and temperature range to aim for and explore.. From my understanding tyre pressure is more important than tyre temperature.

    What is tyre A..?
    What size is tyre A (F/R)..?
    What class is tyre A..?
    Does tyre A like 12-18 psi or 26-32 psi working range..? I know for most cases it will be a much smaller range however I don't expect the devs to try and pass on any magic number such as "it should be hot 22.3 PSI or between 22.0-22.5 PSI.."
    Does tyre A like 60-80 or 90-110 degrees temperature range..?

    At the moment we don't have any motec analysis and there is no usable tyre set info (temps, wear, grain, blister, flatspot etc..) when returning to the pit garage.. Trying to drive around at 300+ kph with limited HUD analysis is not ideal.. Something I am sure Reiza will rectify in the future.

    As I previously mentioned, how do you expect rookies and new comers to AMS2 to understand this a little, with so many combos available and wet weather.. Give them some basic guidelines when they jump around from tyre to tyre or combo to combo..
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
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  11. Coanda

    Coanda aahhh whinge whinge f@#ken whinge.. Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    .. and because of this procedure you know how to quickly adjust your tyre pressures between qualy and the race. When you only have a minute or two and the weather between sessions swings 15-20 degrees this helps a lot. More drivers in MP will start the race within a acceptable pressure range which equates to better racing..

    My current rule for the GT3 dry tyre is +/- 0.04-0.05 PSI per degree of track temperature change..
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  12. Coanda

    Coanda aahhh whinge whinge f@#ken whinge.. Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I asked what the zero meant a while back however there are no answers as of yet..

    Currently we cannot see this information in the pit garage.. I am not sure what is planned for the future..
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  13. alink

    alink Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Depending on tire construction (size) and weight of car on which it will be used (means the vertical pressure on the tire which is also depending if car has downforce (car with wings) or upforce (like a normal street car)) it's possible to calculate the needed working pressure. This is done by tire constructer like Pirelli, GoodYear, Bridgestone..... But this is only theoretical, so you need to test to validate. The optimum working temperature is depending on the tire mixture. The temperature should be in a range where components are not too cold and therefore to 'hard' but also not too hot that components are too 'liquid' or gassy. For example soft tires may have more softener which makes the tire better working but if temperature goes too high the softener will be dropped out and the tire looses performance. Only the tire manufacturer knows the recipe and therefore which temperatures are best for each compound.
    Then, the exciting point for drivers/engineers is to find out the 'cold tire pressure'. This starting pressure is depending on air and track temperature, road surface, corners, speeds and and and.... everything what heatens up the tire (or cool it down if driving on ice :))

    I think it's not possible for us SIM racers to figure out the optimum temps and pressures we don't have the needed background information for the tires. But Reiza must have it, otherwise they can't rebuild a realistic behavior of the tire.
    In my opinion, if they note the best working range of a 'warm tire' with temp. and pressure at the cars' info screen this would be very helpful. The rest, how to reach this pressure and temp, is our effort.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
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  14. Coanda

    Coanda aahhh whinge whinge f@#ken whinge.. Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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  15. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    What you are interested in is not the hot pressure! Pressures are not what you want to achieve. Uniform (or close to) temperatures and within good limits of tire workability is what you need. Just pull up the telemetry as you are driving and you will see three T values per wheel. No one in the world targets a hot tire pressure! You target a cold tire pressure to achieve a hot tire temperature which is what makes the tire work badly or nicely!
     
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  16. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Yes there is. All dry tires for all cars have to target the same hot pressure of 27.7/27.8 PSI. The cold tires pressures adjustments to achieve that from the baseline setup is almost negligible. It's enough to watch any streamers. That is not realistic.
    What Pirelli gives in F1 for example is a range of pressures (rather a minimum pressure because teams are trying to go as low as possible) for structural and safety concerns to avoid tires failures and punctures. It has nothing to do with the window of best performance temperature and the likes.
    Like all the racing teams do, go on track read your temperatures, see you wear and adjust.
     
  17. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing AMS2 Club Member

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    This is the document Pirelli supplied to the teams taking part in the 2019 Blancpain Asia. While I appreciate that this document and the values within are very specific to the mentioned series, if you still think teams are generally going in blind and have to figure their tires out themselves from scratch, maybe have a read. Take note specifically of the "hot target pressure" on page four.

    As @alink already said, of course the teams will go out and change the pressures to what fits them best for the track/weather/driver, but still Pirelli gives them a minimum and an optimum. If you remember, even in AC the optimal pressure wasn't a fixed value, but a range within 2-4 PSI depending on the tire.
     

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  18. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    What you are showing is a regulatory requirement which is made of two things:
    1- Minimum cold tire pressure
    2- While respecting the minimum cold inflation pressure a so called Target Hot Pressure to be achieved (which again is a minimum)
    It does not mean that you can't go over that if that suits your car.

    Their concern with the hot target pressure is tire integrity and in fact they require you to reach at least that value. It has nothing to do with the best performance of the car. As long as you reach 2.0 bar hot you are fine.
    In facts as you see there are curves for pressures up to 2.6 bars
    upload_2020-8-17_17-16-25.png
     
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  19. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing AMS2 Club Member

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    No, what I'm showing is the
    upload_2020-8-18_7-30-33.png
    showing the
    upload_2020-8-18_7-38-52.png
    of the tires. This has nothing to do with technical or sporting regulations.

    Pirelli tells the teams how their tires work and what the limits of the tires are, and how they behave at certain pressures. So Pirelli not only tells the teams the optimum in the hot target value, but even calculated data for surrounding pressure values.
     
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  20. David Wright

    David Wright Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    The Blancpain teams ignore the Pirelli "optimum" hot pressures.

    The request for help isn't unreasonable. The absence of help isn't unreasonable either. I suspect the hotlappers probably have a better idea than Reiza, just as the real teams have a better idea than Pirelli.
     
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