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Tyres Tyres Tyres

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Coanda, Aug 16, 2020.

  1. lawgicau

    lawgicau Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    What toniware is saying is that these values are included in the game's code already, and they have been enable to extract them. :)
    I assume for the brake temps are the ideal before hitting the brakes. As in tune your ducting they they don't drop below this on the straights.
    Very useful, thank you.
     
  2. MasterLooser

    MasterLooser Greyhat DWORD Developer AMS2 Club Member

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    hey everyone

    i was indeed wrong about the calculation.
    the correct temp value is stored 8bytes after the current temperatur.

    that being said, the optimum temp for the f1's i named in the other post is 500°C on the brakes.
    for road cars (like the superv8, ginetta) the optimum is 350°C

    regarding what lawgicau said, no, the temperatur i am naming is the temperatur your brakes will have their strongest force potential.
    if you sit at say 350°C in a superv8 on the straight and u start to touch your brakes u will be past the temp before u even full press the pedal, by the time u press the pedal to the max, ur brakes are already way past that temp and started losing power

    maybe this explains it a bit better, this graph isnt accurate, its whole purpose is to give u a bit of a visualisation of how the potential force works near the temps i am naming
    [​IMG]
    its exaggerated here, at 1000°C u still have ~40%
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
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  3. Micropitt

    Micropitt Mediocre driver doing mediocre laps AMS2 Club Member

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    Thanks for looking in to it. I assume that the value you mentioned also directly relate to the color change of the disks we see in or HUD. Means by 500 C the color should start changing from green to yellow (by the F1 car).
     
  4. MasterLooser

    MasterLooser Greyhat DWORD Developer AMS2 Club Member

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    i didnt look in the hud stuff, but i am pretty sure thats how that works
     
  5. alink

    alink Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    To complete, F1 brakes (carbon brakes) shouldn't go less than 300°C (minimum 200°C) and not much higher than 1000°C, as can be read here
    Formula One Brake Systems, Explained!.
    and here
    Formula 1 brakes explained - Motorsport Technology
     
  6. alink

    alink Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    This is an interesting articel I found at brembo-homepage
    F1 Infographics
    Use range of carbon-brakes 350-1000°C
    Use range of normal steel-brakes -50-500°C
     
  7. Auduns75

    Auduns75 RWB Audi AMS2 Club Member

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    I'm amazed that 4 pages have ensued where the notion is that tire pressures is a function to control tire temps, this is wrong. You will always target oprimal hot pressure that gives you a maximum contact patch. Tire temp is related to pressures, but if you have the correct hot pressure, and still got temp problem, you need to adapt your driving. Remember that you want your tire when at operational pressure to have a flat surface, ie if under inflated middle section will not have the same contact as side sections, if over inflated your middle section will have to take all the forces.
     
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  8. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Actually you need to ensure the correct patch of contact while ensuring the correct temperature. Just think what the difference in pressure must be to ensure the temperature is in the correct range during endurance races at night. Pirelli's booklet shows exactly the data necessary to figure out what the pressure's related changes on the tire are. You can easily see that they are including pressures ranging from 1.4 bar to 2.6 bar by type of tire (which is related to one or more cars). This means that on different tracks and conditions the tires may see this range of pressures.
    As I mentioned earlier the needed pressure is related to static weight which is the starting point and then has to be adjusted for downforce/tire loading due to weight transfer, track temperature, camber/caster, TC. Even brakes heat has an impact. As such there is not ONE optimal hot pressure value good for all tracks and conditions because some of the variables are fixed and some are not.
    The optimal hot pressure is the one that ensures proper profile by countering the static load and the driver/car specific loads and it is signaled by close to homogeneous temperatures across the patch and at the same time helps as much as possible achieving proper operating temperature (for F1s around 90-95C).
     
  9. alink

    alink Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Right, pressure doesn't control temperature. It's the opposite way, temperature controls pressure. The higher the temp the higher the pressure.
    So if running a hot tire lowering pressure is needed to keep the right contact patch. With an cold tire then higher pressure is needed.
    But the temp itself is depending on:
    tire compound, track temp, driving style, setup of srpings / ARB, and others.
     
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  10. MasterLooser

    MasterLooser Greyhat DWORD Developer AMS2 Club Member

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    i usually see the opposite
    if u have more starting pressure the tires dont get as hot, prolly due to less contact with the road
     
  11. lawgicau

    lawgicau Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Lower pressure allows more tyre deformation which increases temps.
     
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  12. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    We are all talking about different things and temperatures. In a tire what you want is:
    1-Tire rubber temperature to be within certain limits (90-95C on tire surface) and uniform or at least linear across the section of the tire so that the rubber exerts its sticking function correctly. This is the most evident indicator that the tire is achieving a reasonable contact patch, however note that the patch area increases by reducing pressures (therefore giving a slightly increased theoretical grip) but by doing this the wall is less supported and the tire behavior is less stiff leading to the tire performing badly because its deformation is increased. The balance between these factors is not evident and depends on all the things we discussed.
    2-Minimum Air pressure during operations (hot pressure) such that the air inside the tire supports the vertical loads to an extent that the tire structure for the reason explained above.

    The temperature and the hot pressure of the air inside the tire are therefore the result of complicated thermodynamic balance where they are neither the controlling parameter nor the actual target parameter because what you really want is proper tire rubber temperature which you can read through telemetry in AMS2 and proper geometry which you can only find by driving and looking at lap times to find the sweet spot because geometry depends on tire loading which depends on so many other parameters. That is also why F1 teams made huge efforts to have sensors to measure real time the actual tire temperature rather than the tire pressure which was much easier to collect.
    [​IMG]

    You can see here at this link why the rubber temperature (actually the temperature of the layers just below the rubber thread) is the key element in determining vehicle's grip and handling and therefore the most important target

    A Real-Time Thermal Model for the Analysis of Tire/Road Interaction in Motorcycle Applications
     
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  13. alink

    alink Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    true, you have more deformation which makes the tire more soften like softer springs. For cars with not setupable springs this is a way to make one end of the car softer or stiffer (with higher pressure).
    But this is not the way to setup the tire temp., just a little bit of fine tuning to get 1-2°C more or less in the middle or outside. That's all.
    One point again: with the pressure you don't control temp. It has an effect on handling. So, if the handling of one end of the car gets better (with higher OR lower pressure) then the tire temp decreases normally (or the temp rises and the better handling is a result of being in working temp range). On the other end of the car the opposite will happen.
    But, as you see, changing pressure can have both effects, higher or lower temp. In which way to go is just seenable with measuring tire temp. Is middle to high then lowering pressure is needed. Is middle to cold, then higher pressure. But it does not have a significant effect on the complete tire temp.
     
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  14. SRS13Rastus

    SRS13Rastus Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Read a lot of these posts and in most of my testing I've monitored temps across the tyre without bothering to target a specific temperature to be maintained, I'll monitor the colour in the part of each track that's hardest on them more than the actual temp shown.
    If the colour changes to yellow then I'll increase the pressure until this stops happening or I see the middle tyre section become the hottest band in the telemetry screen if that doesn't keep them in the green then I'll look at the tuning setup in an effort to change the loading via camber and differential settings etc.
    I generally run harder tyres because it's far easier and takes a lot less time to increase the temps than to decrease them e.g. a few corners of ragging the pants off the car with hard braking hard acceleration more savage steering will increase them more rapidly than you'll ever be able to cool them down if the're too hot, it can take 2-3 laps to reduce temps and they'll only over heat after you get back up to race pace, you can't cool tyres by driving faster you HAVE to slow down but, you CAN heat them by going faster which will cost you less time over the course of the race. They'll take longer to lose temperature and fall out of the wide grip window.
    Chasing such a narrow ideal temp window is nonsensical, they can and will change dramatically over the course of a single lap by way more than 2-3 degrees either side of the ideal so trying to maintain a mere 5 degree range won't work and ultimately cost you stupid amounts of time over the race, but as I said adding heat is easier and less time consuming than trying to lose heat, run em higher pressure for less rolling resistance and forget chasing the "ideal" temp, it's to ephemeral and elusive. set them and test em based on how the car FEELS and how hard you can push them and for how long, forget trying to maintain a 5 degree range that's far to narrow.
    If they're too hot at the most demanding corner add pressure until the tyre deforms then go back a few steps and change the car setup, if they're too cold reduce it or drive the car harder.
    In other words test, test and test again. Long runs, short runs, all of that will establish the best setup for each track and time of day.
    Also take into account the race length short races of less than 10 laps don't bother unless they're overheating. You won't burn through the tread depth in 10 laps so why worry about it.
    If the race is 30-40 laps or more then yeah NOW temps are far more important due to the effects on lifespan.
    It's really that simple imo...
     
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  15. SaxOhare

    SaxOhare Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I have no idea about tire temperatures, i always take it as it comes, can't feel that much difference, compared to my other setup changes.
    Some cars run their tires hot, some cold, with most of the cars the temps stay in a reasonable margin.
    I have no clue what to do to change the tire temp.
    The only things matters are getting in a rhythm and the track getting rubbered-in, I always go faster in the end of a race, so i think the tires have a little effect.
     
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  16. Marius H

    Marius H Internal Beta Tester Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I do believe tyre temps and pressure do not have lots of impact in AMS 2. In AMS 1 they were the first things I changed cause they had such a huge impact. Brake ducts, arbs, toe and downfoce are much more important in AMS 2, imho.
     
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  17. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I would say all true except that some cars are not so easy to bring to yellow. You probably are racing more Super V8 and similar cars where tires overheating is really very heavy and visible. Already if you drive Ultima Race you will not see yellow unless you really trash the car around, but in the telemetry you can see that exceeding 100-105C tires perform worse well before becoming yellow. The window of best operation is not that narrow (at least for relatively modern F1s, prototypes and Ultima GTR Race that I drove a lot). It usually go from 80-85 to 100-105 max. Remaining there you want to add also a decent profile of temperature across the section which will influence your pressure slightly.
     
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  18. steelreserv

    steelreserv Well-Known Member Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Yes please!
     
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  19. steelreserv

    steelreserv Well-Known Member Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Bingo bango...see page 10. Since AMS2 uses SETA (the same as PC2) , I imagine its very similar.

     
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  20. Coanda

    Coanda aahhh whinge whinge f@#ken whinge.. Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    @steelreserv - thank you very much for the useful info.. :cool:
     

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