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AI speed: difference between quali and race

Discussion in 'Automobilista - General Discussion' started by Fabian Biehne, Jul 1, 2016.

  1. Fabian Biehne

    Fabian Biehne Member

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    Hi there,

    I use to fiddle around with the AI settings in the plr file and I think now I got a lot adjusted to my likings.
    However, there is one thing that bothers me: in the qualification the AI destroys me (1-2 seconds faster) but in the following race I have the same speed – or I am even faster – as the leaders. So I normally finish the race at least in the top 5, starting from the end of the grid.

    Can this somehow be changed? That the AI has the same speed in qualification as in the race?
     
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  2. Koba

    Koba Active Member

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    Yes this annoys me a lot as well. In order to set the AI speed to be similar to mine in the race, I have to turn up the AI strength to the point where I qualify last. So I turned off qualifying and just set a fixed starting grid position when I race against AI.

    The other thing that annoys me is that if I set the AI strength to have a similar lap time to me in the race, I noticed that I can brake later and harder than them, and they make up for that by accelerating perfectly hard out the corners every time. So I still feel incompatible with the AI (like we're driving different types of cars) even when the laps times are similar.
     
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  3. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    If you guys could precise this a bit more it would be helpful - what track, what car, AI strength and what are the laptimes you´re noticing inconsistent performance.

    We have a parameter in the AIW files for this, RaceQualRatio=1.001 (has now been reduced from 1.002), which basically means AI is around 1% faster in quali relative to their optimum race pace. The proper difference may vary a bit from car to car as some may have more scope for a quali-special setup, but this should generally be a fair gap..

    You can tweak this value to your preference (though that will trigger a mismatch online), or if you report on where you find to be inconsistencies, we´ll have a look.

    Keep in mind that if you want accurate AI performance you should run the quali distance or accelerate the time to finish it - skipping it mid-session will skew the AI times.
     
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  4. Fabian Biehne

    Fabian Biehne Member

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    It was with the Formula Classic at Vanport. AI strenght at 105%. However, it doesn’t matter which track it is because they are faster in qualfiying at every circuit (be it mod or original).

    I’ll try this parameter in the AIW files, thanks.
     
  5. Angel Of Attack

    Angel Of Attack Member

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    Same Here with CopaMarcas, 3~4s in difference on pretty much all tracks regurdless stock or mod (and in most of mods AIW ,there is no "RaceQualRatio=xxx" is that default to be 1.000?"
    I can barely follow AI when Qualifcation, but very easy to make up place form last to 1st in 3~4 laps in Race.
    It seems AI would be slown down when Racing with others closely, so why put a RaceQualRatio over 1 anyway?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
  6. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    3-4s does sound way over the top. If you are up to posting some quali vs race lap times youre getting from the AI at what % vs your own time, Ill be glad to have a look.

    Mod tracks are mod tracks though, same with mod cars. Its up to whatever values the modder is plugging in.
     
  7. Martakus

    Martakus Member

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    I've noticed this with the Boxer Cup on Santa Cruz do Sul, AIs are about 2 seconds per lap slower in the race. (~85% AI strength)
     
  8. F1Aussie

    F1Aussie Member

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    I have noticed in most sims that fastest race laps are similar or even faster than q lap times in general for me but for ai race laps are usually slower. Maybe there needs to be more weight penalty for carrying more fuel?
     
  9. Pieter Nienhuis

    Pieter Nienhuis Member

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    Boxercup AI @ Santa Cruz 102% medium agression
    Fastest qual laptime of AI 1m21s6xx
    Fastest race laptime of AI 1m23s4xx
     
  10. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member

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    same sorta thing at speilberg.
     
  11. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    How long was the race in which the latter lap time was set though, and did you run the full quali length (either in regular time or accelerated time, ie without skipping as that would skew quali times)?

    Consider the pole time as the peak - track conditions, tire wear vs fuel load plus a small quali delta for extra commitment + a slightly quali-biased setup could warrant that difference in the best race lap. Even if you´re running very short 3-4 lap races which are effectively a quali run, quali will see quicker times because there will be more rubber set in over that session (unless you´re running max track conditions so there´s no actual progression with extra laps).

    Not saying this might not be due a revision again as a lot has changed since I last played with quali pace (I´ll have a look myself at that combo), but these variables are worth keeping in mind.
     
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  12. Pieter Nienhuis

    Pieter Nienhuis Member

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    Hi Renato. I ran the full quali in regular time and then did a 16 lap race. I will keep notes of more races on Reiza and mod-tracks. Btw quite a few mod tracks have all the proper values in the AIW's
     
  13. keith windsor

    keith windsor Active Member

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    What fuel do you all use for your qualifying sessions? It makes a major difference to lap times.

    In a qual session, AI start on low fuel when setting their fastest times.

    If I also run on low fuel in qual, it usually translates quite well to starting the race on full tanks.
     
  14. Pieter Nienhuis

    Pieter Nienhuis Member

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    Just enough to do a couple of fast laps.
     
  15. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Active Member

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    This has been the same issue since the beginning of rF1.
     
  16. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    rF1 does not have a functioning RaceQualRatio, and we have since worked on this issue specifically. The only "issue" that could be considered as such which remains is AI times being skewed when quali is skipped.

    The original tracks should generally have an adequate performance gap qual vs race. I´ve done some testing since this thread first popped up and have verified only a few tenths between quali and a short 5-lap race in many car / track combos. If someone verifies otherwise, please feel free to report the car / track combo used, the AI strength setting and the times you have observed so I can give it a look.
     
  17. Msportdan

    Msportdan Well-Known Member

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    Renato how about when qualy is accelerated. I often do that and have noticed 3-4 sec gaps between qual and race. as mentioned above at speilberg. AI at 110%. Think the common issue people are finding that they are getting thrashed in qualy and are just finding the AI race not on par and catching AI easier than expected. Well thats my take on it.

    p.s on the subject of qualy will we get a qualy session length option like AMS?

    Regards
     
  18. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    Time acceleration should be fine. As said, if folks can report where they´re finding such performance discrepancy between quali and race, I´ll be happy to take a look. The only example provided so far by Pieter (Boxer @ Sta Cruz) seemed well within normal - if you do a very short 5- lap race vs a 20-lap race the AI will naturally be slower in the latter as it has to contend with race fuel loads and tire wear at the end of it. In any case if Im not mistaken AI quali performance was toned down a bit further since.

    Regarding quali length, yes that option has been added. Dang it Dan, you spoil all my surprises :p
     
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  19. Salvatore Sirignano

    Salvatore Sirignano Member

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    @Renato Simioni
    Sorry to bump this thread after such a long time, but I've been testing this out, firstly on mod tracks, but later on Reiza ones.
    I have found that the values you are quoting, and which are in the AIW files which are viewable, may have one zero too many in them. RaceQualRatio=1.001 numerically is only a 0.1% difference.
    Testing this in game reveals no difference at all, in fact, the AI set faster laps in practice than in qualifying, and their final race laps in a short 20 min race are also faster than in qualifying.
    However, setting RaceQualRatio=1.04 (ie 4% difference) translated in game to a 0.8s faster pole time at Johannesburg Historic vs practice., and faster pole times than the race fastest lap. This is much more realistic.
    Would you be able to either change theses values for the forthcoming update, or, make the AIWs visible for all Reiza tracks? Or advise us if we could put an override in, say in the .gdb file.


    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
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  20. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Active Member

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    I have spent a gazillion hours reworking AIW for a mod track pack. I also found that a higher value worked better and settled on RaceQualRatio=(1.015), or 1.5%. There are so many issues, though, that this is a very complex equation. Does the user drop fuel levels to minimum in Q? Do the AI do the same? Do the AI know enough to keep their tires fresh (for the series where that will make a big difference)? Unlimited tire sets versus limited? Talent files?

    The frustration for me was that despite the strangely low RaceQualRatio number (so low as to be meaningless it would seem) in Caruaru.AIW, I haven't found issues when running a full race cycle (Q and race) at Reiza tracks. @Salvatore Sirignano, could you share a small table of test results that confirms which car, track, AI strength%, aggression level, P time, Q time and Race lap distance? For the Q ,we also need to know how many laps they ran and which was the fastest (is it fuel burn-off or fresh tires or lack of tire wear or what combo is giving them their best laps). It's a lot of numbers and work, but anything less does not allow a proper comparison or calibration to occur.
     
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