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Automobilista 2 June 2021 Development Update

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - News & Announcements' started by Renato Simioni, Jul 1, 2021.

  1. Roy Niessink

    Roy Niessink Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, its just because of that attitude that multiplayer is not growing, if everyone thinks like that then there will be less people online.

    I stream ams2 several nights a week, and almost everynight i get a lobby with 12 to 16 people, it does depend on the time though.
     
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  2. bmerrell

    bmerrell Member

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    I have stuck with AMS2 so far because I think it offers the best overall experience of any current sim. I'm sure many of you agree with me, or else you wouldn't spend time on it.

    And yet, despite our confidence that the underlying product is very good, AMS2 hasn't become very popular. Based on the usage statistics I quoted above, it has only 10% as many users as ACC, even though the latter sim focuses on only one series! Worse yet, AMS2 has the highest drop-off rate, and as many as 70% of people who tried the sim have stopped playing it regularly (whereas 40-60% of people are still playing AC and RF2, even though those sims are years and years old).

    If the product itself is pretty good, we need to ask why AMS2 has been slow to grow its user base and why it is not retaining as many users as it could. (Yes, there are a few dozen people online each weekend, but if this is the best sim on the market shouldn't there be several hundred or even several thousand people online instead? Yes, there are more AMS2 players than AMS players, but isn't that a low expectation? Shouldn't we expect AMS2 to be substantially more popular than its predecessor, and for the vast majority of AMS users to have swapped to AMS2 after a year and a half? Instead, I see leagues switching back from AMS2 to the original AMS because they consider AMS2 to be too bug-ridden.)

    I believe one of the main reasons AMS2 is underperforming (relative to how popular it should be) is that Reiza has adopted some habits and behaviors that do not inspire confidence.

    They sometimes miss release deadlines or fail to provide development updates. They have deleted or canceled previously published development roadmaps. They have promised simple changes (like resetting the TT boards) and then changed their mind or failed to follow through. They've dropped beta releases at the last minute and allowed very little time for testing: all of these are examples of behaviors that create doubt for users and make Reiza appear unprofessional as a studio. Do we really trust Reiza to succeed in continuing to polish the sim? Probably. Over what timeline do we expect to see the results? I have no idea..

    These types of questions would be avoided if Reiza was better at managing expectations and meeting their own self-imposed deadlines. They're the ones who established a monthly release schedule. They're the ones who created a pattern of monthly development updates. These are unforced errors if they didn't plan to adhere to those schedules.
     
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  3. Beccobunsen

    Beccobunsen Well-Known Member

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    I m not a developer with published commercial title on Pc and Console, New sim on development you can by on steam and people to pay, tax to cover an stuff...
    Is like thinking "I bought an apartment, but the next building you should do it this way".
    Are you an arquitect?

    I turn on the computer and play, can I choose .., an emulator, pinball or a Sim?
    For me is a Hobby for others is a source of income and a way of earning a living, I can have this responsibility to say how to proceed?, at most I uninstall...
     
  4. bmerrell

    bmerrell Member

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    That's a flawed analogy. I'm not criticizing their coding or their content. I am not criticizing anything unique to their industry or their specialty.

    I'm criticizing their habit of creating expectations (intentionally or otherwise) and then failing to deliver and also failing to provide even a quick note that would temper those expectations.

    In what way would it be worse for users or more work for Reiza if they either (1) never started a pattern of posting monthly development updates, and thereby avoided creating a sense of expectancy among users, or (2) posted a quick note in the release update that this month they were not releasing a development update, as they wanted to keep the details under wraps at the moment?

    Finally, the Reiza employees are undoubtedly experts at the mechanics of game development. Why should we assume they are also experts at PR and public communication? It seems plausible they are very good at the former and not as specialized at the latter, especially considering they are a small studio.
     
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  5. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    So we shifted from "when dev-blog?" to "The end is near" now, basically?

    Yes, Reiza might not be the most on point with announcement (this has several reasons that might sometimes need better communication indeed).
    It will not doom the product tho.

    And comparisons of steam numbers is nothing that should concern you too much, based on the knowledge that Reiza Studios is still existing and working on their long term project that has been communicated as such.

    Just chill a bit and enjoy the game.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
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  6. bmerrell

    bmerrell Member

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    Nope. Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.

    I am merely emphasizng that AMS2 would probably have more active users, Reiza would have more customers, and we would enjoy a better overall experience if they provided consistent updates.

    Please continue deflecting, though. (Edit: CE, you often seem defensive, as though you think people posting on this forum are doing so because they dislike AMS2. In general, the opposite is true: we genuinely love AMS2 or else we wouldn't bother posting. We simply want the sim to grow as much as possible and for the developers at Reiza to succeed as much as possible. Criticism is often the first step toward improvement.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
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  7. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Nope, like i have stated before, i even agree with some points...
     
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  8. Dolph

    Dolph Well-Known Member

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    If they are working on content I would guess its Monza to be ready for the F1 race.
     
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  9. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Active Member

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    Theres a massive assumption that people expect these monthly updates. I for one didnt, I just thought it was a good thing to be enjoyed as long as it lasts. But thats beside the point really. To say that people will go off a sim because its not seeing regular updates is not backed up by the likes of Rf2 etc who, lets face it, are the gold standard for not doing regular updates. Yet the youtube circus doesnt throw its collective dummy out of the pram at the continued garbage that is produced like the recent Rf2 UI 'upgrade'..
    I think we need to look deeper than the superficial symptoms exhibited by the pompous bunch of bobble headed youtube self-professed 'experts' (strong stuff maybe but its laughable how much credence these clowns get) Driver 61 is about the only youtuber I'll listen to on racing sims but again, thats not important. Why are people leaving AMS2? Because at the moment its just not good enough to get them to stay. A lot of what you say harkens to this fact- conversations about physics, ai etc. Now would we like a drip drip drip of fixes that pisses everyone off because it requires folder deletion every month or would we like a more long term project?
    Expectation management has never been a youtube influencers strongpoint..
    There will be plenty like me who just put it on the shelf for 6 months then come back to see how its going. No big deal.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  10. Marius H

    Marius H Internal Beta Tester Reiza Backer

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    Guys be happy there's lenghty deep Monthly from time to time.. I remember Codies DR1 monthly update from Christina which was just one big Tweet.. Still lobe you, Christina. <3
     
  11. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I still recall the day I discovered the Dirt Rally Demo had been released, seemingly just out of the blue. Surprise! o_O . . . :) . . . :D

    Awesome Day Indeed.
     
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  12. stealthradek

    stealthradek Well-Known Member

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    At least the release changelog is comprehensive and contains some glimpse of the future additions. I don't mind if it stays that way.
     
  13. Mike1304

    Mike1304 Active Member

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    I can’t say that Reiza are getting essential things wrong, otherwise AMS2 would not have become my only go-to-sim and I wouldn’t always look forward to game updates and dev updates like a little child.
    I can’t wait for further content and DLC and don’t care what influencers and youtubers say. It’s sad that many people can’t form their own opinions anymore and that they can no longer be happy about things if they are not 100% perfect.
    First world problems.
    I don't think the gloomy prophecies of some forum members will come true but Reiza will certainly not lose all its customers, …at least not me.
    Wow, that was cheesy... :D:rolleyes:
     
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  14. Split Second

    Split Second Active Member

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    I will offer my viewpoint on how I see it. Many know that I don't have AMS2.
    I was very close to buying it. But I am dealing with great depression for years now and it is only getting worse. Before I would play console games very often with racing games as my favorite.
    But now I am playing less and less and I am just trying to stay alive. Which makes me sad. I played Project Cars2 and I played most of the time time trial against a friend and it was fun. But the physics were weird (but I loved their racing trailers on yt, that hardcore stuff).
    But it was much better with a controller than PC1 for me so I played it much more.
    Then I heard AMS2 was coming out. And many thought it would be a golden combination. Many on the SMS forum were fed up with the way they treated their fans. Because no updates were coming anymore.
    I looked up AMS1 and I was blown away by how it sounded. Then they showed the first clip with the f1 driving on the track and it looked very good.
    I hoped it would transfer the physics of AMS1 to 2. Now if I am being honest I enjoy watching other people driving. I watch a lot of Jardier. He said he was looking forward to AMS2. But he stayed playing ACC. I liked that he played PC2 before too because of the variety.
    Then I continued watching how it evolved. And the more I looked the more I saw things from PC2. There is something in the physics that is as PC2 that looks very different than other sims. It is the sliding, bouncing, etc... It is not with all the cars but I see it in many. And I think that many of the YouTubers agree (because I hear them expressing it, it also has a big stigma with that engine). And mind you this comes from someone that played PC2 but not AMS2 (take that in mind). I just see the same stuff as in PC2 sometimes. It looks way different in physics than AMS1. AMS1 looks sharper, direct, responsive, more like other sims. And again that is by comparing driving PC1 and 2 with seeing AMS2 (so take it the way you like). Imo you can see the same things even by only looking. Like for example the way the car bounces looks very hard like PC2 also the way the chassis seems to flex. And also other things like how it behaves at low speed, etc... Now to be clear there are many things that are not the same and are much better in AMS2. But for me, there are still fundamental things wrong when I look at it. If it is true I don't know, it just doesn't look natural. The difficulty of course also is that there are very different cars.
    If It would have been splendid and if I completely liked what I saw then I probably would have bought it (hard to tell because I have a very very hard time now and I am a console player and I have a small screen with no wheel or pedals).
    I also think this long-term project is hurting it a lot. Titles have to come in with a bang. And this one doesn't give confidence because there are still far too many bugs and it isn't polished enough (see how polished ACC is). There are even still elements from Project Cars in the UI. That should not happen imo.
    Also the title keeps changing a lot. I think people don't know to what Reiza is working too. As for me the physics are not to my liking when I look at others drive. And maybe they will change or maybe they don't. I have heard conflicting messages from Renato about that. If it stays this way then it is not for me. I also think if they would open it up to the modders the interest would jump way up but it is a totally different model.
    I also think that success brings success. That's why it is so important to have a good multiplayer and good esports and having YouTubers playing your game and enjoying it. If people see many people enjoying it and see it works great they will buy it.
    Now they are buying more a process, which can be fun for some but you have to be patient and you don't know how it may change in every department.
    That's why I am confused when people say that they believe in Reiza and it will become good.
    What does this mean? Do they want different physics (more like AMS1 but more realistic in some departments) or do they just want things to be fleshed out? Rating, more cars and tracks, better editor, and such?
    So yeah I don't post here often anymore. Because I am not really relevant. But I thought I would share why I have not bought it and maybe others agree when looking at youtube and also comments. Maybe it is interesting to Reiza. Or maybe they find it a waste of space. If they or others find it a waste of space then just say so and I will delete this long post. I thought it might just be helpful.
     
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  15. Beccobunsen

    Beccobunsen Well-Known Member

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    is not the 3d you are looking for...
     
  16. Split Second

    Split Second Active Member

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    Is that to me?
     
  17. Beccobunsen

    Beccobunsen Well-Known Member

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    no , wrong 3d
     
  18. BazzaLB

    BazzaLB Active Member

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    That is the way of the modern world it seems. Just watch others doing it via twitch. Boggles my 57 year old mind. There used to be this saying about throwing money at the screen.. but now its even true.. people throwing money at twitch streamers just to get some irritating call out that incessantly interrupts any real value in the stream itself. (Yes, I did watch one or two)

    I can see you are someone who likes to "Judge for himself!" by "Watching other people play". Others like me put their money where their mouth is.

    Out of curiosity.. did you buy AMS1 or just watch people play that one too?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  19. oez

    oez Mayor of Long Beach Reiza Backer

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    All the best to you split! Reading this also made me sad. I hope your situation gets better, and back to enjoying life and games.

    Some have the AMS1 dream perhaps, but I never played it before 2 so I don’t really have it as a strong reference point. I did play PC2, Raceroom, AC and ACC though.

    Lets just say we all have our little universe inside our head full of expectations on how different race cars drive. Mine is fueled by onboards and rental karts. AMS2’s driving pleases me more than past less dynamic sims. As it happens iRacing can also deliver the goods in a way, but it’s its own can of worms.

    I believe classes like GT1, Stock Car Brasil 2019 and FV10 G2 are a good representation of physics right now. One important thing to keep in mind is that AMS1 had to minimise physics issues from its ISI foundation too. Some stayed such as the inaccurate driveline model and no dynamic conditions. And it obviously never had physical tires like AMS2 which simply act different at the limit. But sim realism is a big gray blob, all sims nibbling at it from different sides.

    I personally want to see AI improvements (I like how it works generally), physics/setup revisions to cars, wet driving experience pass or two, more content, gameplay features, and a long term MP system. Basically what we have now, but improved. Nothing dramatic. Just Reiza working on it for many more months to come :).
     
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  20. Gazzawesty

    Gazzawesty Skunkedup

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    I will admit that I am a little disappointed in the progress of this game. Roll back 8 or so months and we were being told that different people were working on different parts of the game. The content creators were not the bug squatters and the bug squatters where not the career development guys who in turn where not the guys that improved the multiplayer stuff. It was all moving along nicely, we get more content and this was not slowing down development of the other stuff as it was different guys doing the different things. So at some point I would expect the guys all working on their different stuff would make progress and at times the game would make a big jump as the different projects are worked through. To me this doesn't seem to be the case. The multiplayer has just about been left to rot, engine optimisations don't seem be happening with bad frames during night time ect. It seems that only the dlc guys are getting through much work and the other stuff has been on the back burner when earlier on in development it was promised the extra content was not going to slow down the rest of development. It will take AMS2 another 4 years at this pace to resemble a complete product.
     
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