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Feedback: please make formula vintage cars more fun like iRacing

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Logan Echolls, May 10, 2020.

  1. Logan Echolls

    Logan Echolls New Member

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    I honestly don't know which game is more realistic, but the perpetual understeer of the formula vintage cars is entirely unfun to drive. Meanwhile iRacing's lotus 49 is downright peppy in the turns and a blast to drive. It doesn't matter how slow I go, and the steering is 1:1 with my wheel in both games, so that's not the issue. Even when I drop down a crawl in first gear, I still can't follow the suggested line even when it's deep green. It's not like iRacing is a "gamey" sim by comparison either, so the Automobilista 2 seems like it's just off the mark by a large margin. Unless they are modeling a car that has much worse handling than the Lotus 49 for some reason, despite looking very much of the same design?
     
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  2. Petrolhead

    Petrolhead Member

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    To be honest I have driven worse. Try the Houstons in RF2
     
  3. TekNeil

    TekNeil Take me back to the 2.4l, twin 50 weber days...

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    There is an issue that's been mentioned here elsewhere. I suffer with this too, something regards the brake pedal deadzone has some effect and makes them understeer to the extreme where it's an obvious bug/issue.
    Try setting the deadzone to '0' or '10' and see if that helps.

    Somebody posted videos somewhere doing some testing.
    Sat on track not moving, put full lock on and then set off slowly, it may just go straight forward and understeer with zero turning. If it does, then it's likely the aforementioned bug.
     
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  4. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing Reiza Backer

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    Although I too am not sure about the way the F-Vintage cars handle currently, I strongly disagree with the notion to make anything more like iRacing.
     
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  5. Dady Cairo

    Dady Cairo Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I wrote that in the Beata Physics thread days ago:

    Dady Cairo said:
    Youre right,in AMS1 they were too easy, GPL was comparable,still slightly too hard.
    No, you missunderstand, the AMS1 one is harder to drive for me.
    I can drift the AMS2 one onehanded, while checking my whatsapp groups...



    You can say what you want,the behavior of that Vintage F-1 Cars are a pain in the ass and honestly not real.They brake out under 100 kph,when gearing ,you can't catch them as they immediately begin to slide elswhere...After reaching up more speed,they are a bit more stable.Normaly,you control the steering into a curve with brake and gas tappin,gently slidein' ore driftin' into ,wich here is not possible as they do like a ship on the wavey water.
    Even AC was closer to that and i said "closer",not more realistic.Maybe it is the tyre model or something els wich should be looked into.And i do not compare ASM1 with AMS 2 in that case,only with Grand Prix Legends.It's a rear driven Beast....;)
    More clearer as that description,i can't tell.

    and:
    Dady Cairo said:
    And George Huttu was the fastest GPL Driver on Keyboard!:)
    Answere from Marc Collins:

    Yes,one Driver,i haven't the correct name yet,said,the Cars in Gpl are harder to drive than the real one's.That's true,but if the cars in AMS 2 could handle a bit more like in AC or RF2,i would be glad.
    It's no fun at all to drive them in the state they are now...IMO.
    All the real Indycar and NASCAR drivers during the hyped-up COVID online races said iRacing was much harder than real life, too...every one of them. But if AMS 2 cars don't try to kill you at every corner, they must be sim-cade.

    and:

    CrimsonEminence said:

    It seems, there is a confusion between FFB =/= Physics going on.

    Is the car behaving weird in the steering wheel, or is it behaving weird in slip situations, even when FFB does not comes into play? This has to be specified.
    For me it seems like there is a tug into the corner as you recentre after countersteering away from the corner that I dont think was there before... maybe it can be dialed out with FFB settings. I think bumps or road camber might play a big part as I just tried it again at Kyalami and it still feels okay there.

    Dady Cairo said:

    And if somebody could be so nice to give me a hint how to drive these beasts in AMS2?I had no problems to get to know them in AMS 1.
    Setup,Break and throttle sensivity,i tryed 0-100,not satisfyed,we have only one tire to choose for all conditons.These heavy understeering makes me confused.The FFB effect don't let me "feel" what the car is doing ,to react on it.

    Answer from Andy-R:

    Set the brake bias to something like 53-54, it should help get it into the corners without understeering, just don't stamp the brakes too hard and it works fine. In the wet I turn it to like 45-46% to avoid understeering off at 2mph. Use brakes and aggressive steering (sometimes) to get it turned in. Try old Kyalami, the car still likes that track. Here's a lap there from a build or two ago.


    Dady Cairo said:
    Maybe the F1 Vintage cars can be "fine tuned" by the Devs.

    Answere from CrimsonEminence:
    What exactly is your issue with them? I still don't understand.
    I don't drive very much to FFB hints, i like it overall pretty heavy, so i can't remember right now, if it delivers understeer information (what is a discussable topic anyway).
    But physics wise, it's IMO pretty believeable...but doesn't feel as refined as it could be, in my opinion, though.

    I have tested the F-Vintage Gen1 M1 and M2 right now and they're still easier to drive, than the AMS1 counterpart. The AMS1 cars have to be babied way more on throttle and feel a lot more alive... (H-Shifter, manual clutch in use and clutchless downshifting as rev match technique for the most time)

    In doubt, make a slower corner entry, yaw them in on the brakes, don't brake toooo hard before the turn-in starts, apply a good chunk of throttle to get the rear out and pedal it through the corners.

    Especially the DFV V8 one is sooo tame, yes it understeers without riding it, but it also has no aero at all, so bringing it slightly sideways all the time is mandatory.

    Be sure, that you have restored the setup to defaults, then put brake bias more to the rear and reduce brake pressure in the setup.


    So,everybody make up their own minds up,like it did!
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  6. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing Reiza Backer

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    To channel my inner Cathy Newman:
    So what you're saying is, it's more likely to be a wonky stock setup than a deeper flaw in the physics/suspension?
     
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  7. Marius H

    Marius H Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    But.. if you want it like iRacing you can play iRacing, right? :p
     
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  8. Dady Cairo

    Dady Cairo Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Yep,the default setup makes it harder to control the car.
     
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  9. Dady Cairo

    Dady Cairo Active Member Reiza Backer

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    And the Vintage Gen 2 with the Aero wing are even harder...
     
  10. SlowPoke80

    SlowPoke80 Member

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    The pros agree: iRacing's tire model is garbage.

    But the physics in AMS 2 are just as bad, only in different ways.
     
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  11. TekNeil

    TekNeil Take me back to the 2.4l, twin 50 weber days...

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    As I suggested earlier, there is a genuine issue regards understeer and brake deadzone: Vintage formulas drivability
    And one of the videos showing it:
     
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  12. Dady Cairo

    Dady Cairo Active Member Reiza Backer

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    To gather a disagree to me,IMHO I'm not
    convincined with the physics and the FFB with this build.
    But the Pro's here will surely convince me...;)
     
  13. Dady Cairo

    Dady Cairo Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Ah,thanx i overread/overlooked that...
    One question to 0 or to 5 then?
    DC
     
  14. Fabian Biehne

    Fabian Biehne Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Although I like Iracing and how some cars feel I'd say their version of the Lotus49 is horrible. So please no.
     
  15. TekNeil

    TekNeil Take me back to the 2.4l, twin 50 weber days...

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    I'd stick the brake deadzone to '0'. then jump on track and see if you have the issue that some others (Inc myself) have. Then I 'think' if you then set it to anything other than '0', the bug shouldn't show itself, although it's still an issue within the game of course as some want zero deadzone.

    Edit: Just to add regards the physics, I do think they definitely need some work, quite a lot in fact as far as these cars IMO. Within lesser extreme situations they are 'OK', but pushed to silly extremes they have physics from the 5th dimension.
     
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  16. Dady Cairo

    Dady Cairo Active Member Reiza Backer

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    @TekNeil
    Wow,that makes a great differnce like day and night..Set to 0 and i can control the damn..car first time!
    I ask myself if this BUG is also with other cars?
    Many thanx!!
     
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  17. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    Those were my videos I posted where I messed with the brake dead zone to solve it. It was randomly causing some very weird behavior in cornering, but those demonstrations from a complete stop were mindblowing to me until I figured out how to work around it.

    I have now determined that I have a random small amount of brake pedal pressure being sensed by my load cell at all times, so I need the dead zone to accomodate that. Im guessing the slower you are going the easier it is to lock up the tires in this physics model, and since the car isnt moving AND there is no weight transferred to the front, this is a worst case scenario for that. So from a complete stop, if you have even a tiny amount of brake applied it will behave that way.

    In general, I find these an absolute blast to drive now, but I do think they understeer quite a bit still (Not defectively so, like before) into corners and oversteer a lot out of corners. It feels to me like AMS2's approach to these cars is very much in the vein of Grand Prix Legends. They want you to slide them around and trail brake them and steer with the throttle, which is honestly great fun, and it rewards playing around with differential setup quite a bit too.

    Comparing to Assetto Corsa, my best Brands Hatch lap time in both games is within a hundredth of a second, which is kind of mind blowing to me, but the Lotus 49 is AC has WAY more grip. You can almost drive it like a normal street car. That may or may not be closer to reality, but AC really punishes you for sliding it around too. It's very difficult to get it right in AC.

    I think this is that same age old debate of transient grip and grip curves that Niels was talking about in Iracing on his youtube video. I think AMS2's physics model with these cars really gives you a really wide flat grip curve peak with these cars, even if the total grip may be a little low.

    I dont know that the physics are accurate on these, and I am not sure many people alive today would really know if they're accurate. I am very open to them tweaking the physics on them a little to make them feel a little less... extreme? They are almost too easy to controllably slide around, but I think AC is too far in the other direction. I will go with whichever is more fun, rewarding, and satisfying. For now that's AMS2, by a pretty large margin.
     
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