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FFB: Just a heads up to Reiza

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by LogiForce, May 27, 2019.

  1. LogiForce

    LogiForce New Member

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    Hi Reiza,

    I just signed up here to let you know that in Project CARS 2 we ended up not transmitting Mx and My tyre moments through the FFB, which resulted in an unbalanced force feedback signal.
    In essence the force feedback wheel is the executing factor of the Physics system and the one that feeds back the results by means of the position sensor.
    This means that by lacking to execute Mx and My moments through the force feedback, the opposing forces to those moments had free game without anything slowing them down.

    As Isaac Newton's third law of motion states: "Every action needs to have an equal and opposite reaction"
    Which are in essence the three forces around the three dimensional axis of the tyre, and the three equal and opposing moments. So without all of them being executed the force feedback in the Madness engine won't feel quite right.

    Here's a link to the Project CARS forum where I posted my FFB tweaker file, maybe you can use it on your end and see if it makes a difference.

    Link: Christiaan's Pure FFB (Custom pCARS2 FFB File)


    I wish you guys all the best in these last finishing months of game development, and I'll be sure to get it when it's hot! :)

    Cheers,

    Christiaan
     
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  2. Juan Reinoso

    Juan Reinoso Doctor SimRacing Reiza Backer

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    Thanks for the file, I will try it,

    I have an Accuforce V2 Pro, I'm using simcomander, I found that set Tone near to 100 (90-100) the handling feels too much better, you can feel when you are on the limit
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  3. LogiForce

    LogiForce New Member

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    You mean Tone with what was provide before and not with my file, correct?

    This is also basically trying to compensate for the missing moments, which I have seen AJ do as well a couple of times in the past.

    I have no clue why nobody noticed it to be honest and I find it quite a game changer myself.

    My recommended settings to start with, if you are testing it in pC2, are obviously a default wheel profile and...

    Gain: 100
    Volume: 50-100
    Tone: 50
    FX: 0-100

    Volume is changed in behavior from the default as well, and is now ranging from 0.0 to 1.0 (0-100%) instead of 0.0 to 2.0 (0-200%).
    Tone at 50 will set all tyre forces and tyre moments to 1.0, so that will give you a flat response from the tyre model. Which would be most ideal for tyre testing.
    FX: To add scrub and such you might want to adjust it to your liking.

    I still need to adjust the FX-effects because not all forces seem to come through nicely, or so that is the feedback I am currently getting. Which might be due to the extra forces fading out the effects a bit somehow.
     
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  4. Juan Reinoso

    Juan Reinoso Doctor SimRacing Reiza Backer

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    Im saying the slider of Tone inside the game FFB options, and I'm using volume from 25 to 50 , depends on the car
     
  5. XTRMNTR2K

    XTRMNTR2K New Member Reiza Backer

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    @LogiForce Thanks a lot for posting this, and thank you for your hard work on the FFB as well. :)

    Haven't used my G25 in a while due to health-related issues, but I this sounded so good I just had to give it a try earlier today.

    Ended up running with volume at 75 for most cars, though some feel better with as little as 65 or 60 even; FX at around 65-75 also gives more information about the road surface, which I like.


    Compared to Jack Spade's FFB, which I was using earlier (Standard, mid comp SopDiff) your FFB seems to be missing a bit of road feel as well as a bit of feel what the rear is doing. However, overall cars feel less unstable and more planted with your FFB, and the effect of suspension compression and extension when going through a hollow or over a crest is much more pronounced, which feels great. Overall I find myself fighting the steering a bit more than before, but during my tests my lap times have improved due to the overall improved feel for the car.

    All in all I'll stick with your FFB and hope for further development. Keep up the great work!
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
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  6. LogiForce

    LogiForce New Member

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    Yeah I get that, but with my file already or with the game default?

    Volume 25-50 is fine, should be in the direct drive range (maybe lowering gain helps too. I found that 50 with my file was already causing clipping on high downforce cars in pC2.
     
  7. LogiForce

    LogiForce New Member

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    I was getting some more feedback on tyre scrub and so on not coming through as much. It's something I'll have to look into.

    What I am most surprised about to hear is that the file is scaling well from a G25 appearantly all the way up to any of the direct drive wheels out there at the moment. That's telling me I am on the right track at least. ;)
     
  8. Juan Reinoso

    Juan Reinoso Doctor SimRacing Reiza Backer

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    Oh sorry I didn't understand, I just saw your post, I will try it tonight if I have time
     
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  9. Juan Reinoso

    Juan Reinoso Doctor SimRacing Reiza Backer

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    I only tried Jack Spade files stan low comp DD by the moment
     
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  10. LogiForce

    LogiForce New Member

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    No worries, misunderstandings happen. Hence I tried to verify it with you.

    I hope you'll have fun and if you guys do, than feel free to spread the word. I mean, the more people who can (finally) start to enjoy it a bit better, the better. ;)
     
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  11. XTRMNTR2K

    XTRMNTR2K New Member Reiza Backer

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    Absolutely! Though I need to correct myself: It's not the tone setting I have at 75, it's volume. I followed your recommendation and set two buttons on my keyboard to change the volume on the fly, which really helps.

    So here are my settings for most cars:
    PC2_FFB.JPG
    Some road cars feel too heavy with 75 volume, as well as some race cars, so I usually reduce that to ~60-65 like I said. That's pretty much the sweet spot for the ones I've been able to test earlier.
     
  12. LogiForce

    LogiForce New Member

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    Ah, thanks for the correction. Now your post makes more sense and the settings in that screenshot as well.

    Yeah, some cars really need to be lowered. The Aston Martin DBR1/300 for example is an old race car that is already clipping if you go above Volume 50!

    It really depends on a car by car basis and if I could or knew how, I would go and mod all cars so that the FFB strength would be more normalized across the board. I do know what setting needs to be adjusted for that, which is something we had in the F1-dev menu during the WMD days and is called "Tyre Force Multi".

    Sounds like you're alright. I'll see if I can tweak the effects a bit in the future as those seem a tad drowned out or not working as fine as they should.

    Spread the word to your mates. Hopefully they find renewed pleasure in the game as well and get a bit more money's worth out of it. :)
     
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  13. LogiForce

    LogiForce New Member

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    Christiaan's Pure FFB v1.01 - Hotfix

    I just had to release a hotfix as I made a mistake with the tone control. Get the latest via the link in the OP.

    Please excuse me for my mistake. :)


    Update:

    Another one...

    Christiaan's Pure FFB v1.02 - Hotfix 2

    A forum member at the Projectcarsgame.com forum noticed another typo in the sum of tyre forces, and I immediately corrected it.
    Let's the say that that z and x are close on the keyboard and I'm only human. :oops:
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  14. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Thanks so much for this help!! PC 2 users unfortunately need a lot of FFB help.

    I had been convinced to use Raw instead of all the various custom files out there and I believe that it is at least intended to be the equivalent of "Pure" in AMS. But your research is compelling. One issue that most of the custom files address is the FFB dead zone. I experience that when I use Raw, but not when I use the newer custom files available on RD. Do you experience that?

    Q1: Does your file have the added lines discovered back in PC 1 days to get rid of the dead zone?

    Q2: Is there some other explanation or solution for it if not?
     
  15. LogiForce

    LogiForce New Member

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    I don't play with custom files of others as I already end up discarding them because of various reasons. Let's just say that I have a completely different view on tuning force feedback than those guys. ;)

    A1: I have a special file made for gear driven wheels in v1.03 now that adds "tighten on center" for deadzone removal as well as a volume control that goes from 0-200% under the hood. So 100 on the in-game volume slider is 200%, and 50 on the slider equals 100% of the force feedback. This so the weaker wheels can get a bit more out of it, which the belt and direct driven wheels don't need.

    A2:Answer not needed as a solution is forwarded already in A1. ;)
     
  16. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I am now a disciple of your philosophy!!!

    For whatever reason, the Gear file feels better on my non-gear Fanatec CSW. I also modified the dead zone line to :

    (output (tighten output 0.00 0.00))

    Thanks so much for this. I can only hope that Reiza is smart enough to set these settings properly in the background and then not allow user fiddling except to set strength. They will also calibrate all cars relative to each other, so the strength only needs to be set once and then not touched again. What a bunch of rabbit holes to go down, but at least you know how to navigate them.
     
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  17. LogiForce

    LogiForce New Member

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    To be honest this makes zero sense. You are disabling tighter center in that way. The only thing remaining is that volume has a bigger range, but that also means volume between 25-50 with that file should be where it's at. Above 50 you are clipping in all cars and you'll have zero feel when cornering.

    What version of CSW is it and what settings are you running exactly?
     
  18. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Setting those to zero to eliminate the FFB dead zone is commonplace in the widely available/most popular custom files? It was discovered back in the PC 1 days.

    The same thing existed in rF2 and AMS and probably every ISI-based sim. Reiza solved it in AMS with the minimum force slider. What is the equivalent to that minimum force setting for PC 2 in the custom file?

    Most of this makes no sense. These settings should never have been exposed to the user in the first place. But you seem to know what you are doing, so let's see if we can learn something together. I am using Volume=50 (and Tone=50 and FX=50). I will experiment with Volume below 50 to see what happens.
     
  19. AlenC

    AlenC Member

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    I just tried version 1.03 for gear driven wheels on my good old GTDF and it feels really good. Best custom settings I've tried so far.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  20. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I would agree with @AlenC that this is the best Custom file I have used. However, it still doesn't feel as good as Raw on my rig. The only flaw with Raw for me is the stupid FFB dead zone that cannot be adjusted-out.

    Are the karts basically useless in PC 2? Because as an example, if I use Raw, I get mediocre quality FFB. If I use either of your 1.03 files, I cannot even start a race. I have to exit to prevent my wheel from imploding or vibrating off its mount. Do others get this violent response in the karts? Some cars feel quite nice with the 1.03 files. But Raw is the only setting for me that at least works minimally for all vehicles. The inconsistency in FFB across the various cars is the major flaw in PC 2 for me. If it's incurable, I'll just stop using it and wait for AMS 2. There is nothing compelling enough in PC 2 to bother investing time and effort into it. If the FFB was perfect, you's still have ludicrously incompetent AI to deal with...
     
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