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Formula Classic H-Pattern shifting technique

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by InfernalVortex, May 23, 2020.

  1. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Member

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    Hey guys, I was just curious...

    I love driving the Formula Vintage cars and rowing through the gears. Some of the classic 80's F1 cars in the game have H-pattern shifters... I think one or 2? Ive attempted to drive them and I just absolutely cannot heel toe down the gears as fast as those things slow down. Am I silly for trying to go down each gear? Should I just skip gears on the way down? What's the best technique for this? Are some of you guys really that fast with the feet and hands?

    Also, I have the Fanatec H-pattern shifter, so it can be changed to sequential mode but the game doesn't seem to register it. Is there a setting somewhere I can activate to make it work for the sequentially shifted Formula cars?
     
  2. Cliff

    Cliff Member

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    There’s a setting in windows Fanatec game controllers you have to tick to get sequential to work.
     
  3. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing Reiza Backer

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    You can block gears when downshifting, the real drivers did it too. You can see it in old onboard videos. Disregard the audio in this one.

     
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  4. alink

    alink Active Member

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    what do you think, are they using the clutch when shifting? I think they don't otherwise they were not able to downshift so fast
     
  5. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Member

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    This is my understanding after research last night I did prior to posting this: They dont during upshifts, but the pre-semiauto transmissions, required clutched downshifts. Some of the transitional ones in the early 90s may not have needed it ,but I remember reading Nigel Mansell talking about one of the early 90s Williams requiring clutched downshifts, and it was an early semi-automatic. Upshifts were fine, but downshifts required the clutch. Kind of interesting, but I cant find it now, so it's unverified speculation.

    Edit: Tiff Needell mentions Heel-toe downshifting a 1991 Williams FW14 in a test drive he did of that car in December 1991 at Estoril. Unfortunately I cant find any direct online sources for that. You guys have any idea how to track that down? It was apparently in multiple magazines in 1992.

    Hah! If those guys did it, certainly I can too! Thanks!
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  6. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    There is a big difference between F-Vintage (60's) and F-Classic (80's) technology. The F-Vintages are closer to a road car in behaviour. If you want to be safe, use the clutch on every shift up and down. You can "rev match" and do some up shifts fairly safely without the clutch. Down shifts are very tricky.

    The 80's H-pattern cars use what could be described in lay terms as pre-sequential transmission technology. Like a sequential, you always use clutch to launch and take a big risk if you shift down to 1st gear without clutch. All other shifts up and down can be accomplished with careful rev matching (less careful than the old 60's stuff; more careful than even newer machines). The only way you can reasonably handle these 80's beasts with ridiculous amounts of power and turbo lag is to lift to shift on the way up and rev match on the way down. As always, with even the slightest doubt about a particular shift (because you got yourself out of shape in some manner), default to using the clutch to avoid grinding the gears and missing the shift (with the commensurate time penalty). Unless any of us is a Senna or Prost-skill level, there is no possibility to downshift by traditional heal-and-toe with our generally toy-level of equipment at the speeds and complexity required to handle these cars. Too many shifts too quickly while also balancing the car on the knife-edge of corners. You must left-foot brake to be able to maintain some revs while clutch-less down shifting.

    That's my opinion, anyway. If there is someone out there who can do traditional heal-and-toe and drive these things at a competitive pace, my hat is off :) However, why would you try when left-foot braking is the vastly safer and more efficient approach?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  7. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Member

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    Guys I just found this, it's amazing that this exists:



    Wikipedia lists this car as having a semi-automatic, but Im guessing it may be closer to a sequential manual, or perhaps it's a semi-automatic without the engine electronics to do modern semi automatic shifts.

    But you clearly see him clutching upshifts AND downshifts, including heel-toe. I would not have expected to see clutched upshifts at all. Could be due to the weather and the grip levels, though?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  8. Juan Reinoso

    Juan Reinoso Doctor SimRacing Reiza Backer

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    IDK if this is the correct technique, but I feel comfortable with it

     
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  9. alink

    alink Active Member

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    if you take a look on Martin Brundle in Monaco he doesn't take 1st gear, even in the hairpin he is in 2nd. When shifting up he lift the throttle and downshifting with rev-match. I think he doesn't use the cluth. Long time ago I also read that it was possible to shift without cluth (since the 80's when they also started to develop sequencial and electronic gearboxes as Ferrari in 1989 first electronic gearbox with paddles instead of gear lever).
    The foot work of Katayama is incredible. Maybe Tyrrell didn't had a cluth / gearbox with which you can shift without clutching or it was too unreliable
     
  10. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Can't see your feet, so we don't know what you are doing. But ANY technique that makes you fast and in control is the RIGHT technique ;)
     
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  11. alink

    alink Active Member

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    Tried to drive like Brundle in Monaco with the classic G3 h-shifter.
    Here is my experience:
    It works and it's great. No cluth just lifting and rev matching. No 1st gear (then you need the clutch). When braking hard (St. Devote and chicane) then I brake and shift in neutral for a short while and then with rev matching into 3rd / 2nd. You don't need to shift every gear (with a sequential it's neccessary).

    Now I also know what was ment when a drive did a wrong shift. He didn't change into wrong gear (I think the best drivers knew which gear they have to switch) but he made a mistake when lifting or rev matching so that the gear didn't insert and he has to repeat the action and lost time. At least this happend to me often...

    @Marc Collins: if you wonder because our last discussion due to shifting I have bought a shifter console, you were right, it's worth to have one, thanks for your persuading :)
     
  12. Juan Reinoso

    Juan Reinoso Doctor SimRacing Reiza Backer

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    G3 models are sequential
     
  13. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing Reiza Backer

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    G3M3 is manual h-pattern.
     
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  14. Juan Reinoso

    Juan Reinoso Doctor SimRacing Reiza Backer

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    I think it's sequential with stick intead of paddles

    Maybe is wrong the description in game...
     
  15. Cliff

    Cliff Member

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    One of my mates was an engineer ate XTrac in the late 80s. At the same time he and I were racing a Rotax powered kart with a 6 speed sequential box. We had long discussions about how F1 teams were missing a trick by not using sequential with actuators. My mate even spoke to his boss at XTrac but he couldn't see the light either and was stuck in the H pattern mindset of the teams they were supplying gearboxes to.

    It was indeed, as you say, Ferrari who made the leap.
     
  16. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing Reiza Backer

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    There never were sequential stick shifters in F1. The G3M3 is manual, but the description could be wrong of course, no idea if the descriptions are already final.
     
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  17. Juan Reinoso

    Juan Reinoso Doctor SimRacing Reiza Backer

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    Everyday you learn something new :D
     
  18. Cliff

    Cliff Member

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    It's definitely manual.
     
  19. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Half the stuff in the UI is still placeholder/wrong.
     
  20. alink

    alink Active Member

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    maybe description is wrong and it's sequential, but Martin Brundle definetly has a h-shifter. You see that his hand goes forward and backward when shifting through the gears in both way, up and down. I will try the same way with classic G1 (as the Lotus in Adelaide, think it's 1985 and Dunfries in the cockpit). But his shifting takes longer so maybe he's clutching(?)
     

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