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Official AI Report Topic

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Renato Simioni, Feb 1, 2021.

  1. tpw

    tpw Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    So I took a couple of months off AMS2, because I was starting to fixate on some of the game's shortcomings, particularly with regards to AI. Well a few hours back on the tools and I have to say they're still worth fixating on:
    • Very large imbalances in AI difficulty across different classes, and different tracks.
    • Unfair imbalances in BOP within classes.
    • AI simply have way too much grip, stability and speed off the ideal racing line, even on grass (hence the side by side thing)
    • AI show way too much willingness to overtake on the inside over grass and kerbs with absolutely no penalty for doing so (unless they run into bollards in which case they'll take the player out then drive off).
    • AI generally too slow into corners and unmatchable out of them.
    • AI getting a magic rage turbo to close the gap on the player if passed
    • AI making essentially no unforced errors
    • AI always coming off better than the player in collisions.
    On the plus side, they do less of that physics defying side to side weaving now, and they perform a little better in the rain.

    It's a real shame that the AI are showing so much A and so little I. A couple of months away has highlighted that the rest of the game is really compelling: the tracks look phenomenal, it loads fast and runs really well (except in the rain), and most of the cars look, feel and sound awesome. Apart from some polish issues with vehicles and the UI, it really is the AI that lets the thing down a bit for me.
     
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  2. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    It also depends a lot on the class. I went through most classes and did quick races just to test how well I could race against each other. These were my findings.

    High-quality AI with less artificial speed boosts and good racing in general:

    GT3, GT4, Copa Uno, Copa Montana, Touring Classics (all), Formula 3, Formula Trainer, GT Classics, Formula Retro Gen 2, Stock Car 2020/21, GTE, Ultima GTR, Ginetta G55 Supercup, Caterham Academy/Superlight, Formula Vintage Gen 2

    Poor AI with artificial speed boosts or bumper car racing:

    GT1, Daytona Prototype, Formula V12, Hotcars, Lancer Cup, JCW Mini, M1 Procar, P1, Formula Classic Gen 2, Ginetta G40 Junior, Group C, P4, Sprint Race, German Group A, Formula Reiza, P3, Copa Classic B

    For now, I would stick to the first category and not bother with the second one. Something seems to have gone haywire with the AI calibration in recent patches making too many classes unpleasant to race against. Something to do with the throttle response changes? It just seems like the AI has way too much acceleration compared to the player now. It didn't use to be like this some months ago.
     
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  3. tpw

    tpw Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Nice work @azaris. I noticed that there are a couple of tracks where otherwise well behaved AI are overly aggressive and way too fast - Bathurst being a shining example.
     
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  4. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Nordschleife is another offender.
     
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  5. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Reiza Backer

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    AI has no artificial speed boosts. If there is a corner exit advantage or straightline advantage by AI, it's down to drag/rolling resistance or corner exit traction and worth a report.

    Just to be clear here: there are no rubberbanding or speed boost/rage mode functions in the AI code at all. It's all down to calibration. Usually it's a track specific thing, if something like that happens.
     
  6. Dicra

    Dicra Active Member

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    Do they have a gearbox, though? Because I feel like, especially in turbo F1 cars, they aren't bogged down at all by upshifts, especially in traction zones. Makes tracks like Imola 1988 pretty hard to enjoy offline - if the cars weren't so much fun to drive, I wouldn't bother at all.
     
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  7. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Reiza Backer

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    Of course they have a gearbox. If AI has IMBA upshifts, please also report. Maybe it's relevant.
     
  8. Dicra

    Dicra Active Member

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    I will. I'm currently driving several car/track combinations as a means of relaxing, and recording them (haven't dabbled with the program you recommended yet). At the moment, I don't have the time and energy to upload and evaluate things I've found, but when my oral exams are over (next Monday - :eek:), I'm absolutely going to.
     
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  9. Apex

    Apex Active Member

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    I agree with most of these points.

    Been away for a while too but occasionally race the early retros. The side-by-side thing is silly, but my experience is that for the most part I actually come out on top after closer encounters. Often they'll crash if you block aggressively which is a bit Hollywood-ish perhaps, but I can't help smiling when that happens.

    The cars are a blast to drive, but racing a cluster of AI cars going side-by-side for several laps or even the entire race isn't much fun.
     
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  10. stlutz

    stlutz Member

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    AI at Monza 1991, regardless of car, is absolutely insane. Cars going airborne in T1, doing crazy dive bombs in every corner, and generally doing everything possible to wreck the player. Could make it past lap 1 in multiple car types.
     
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  11. tpw

    tpw Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    So due to the latest AI changes removing 98% of the insanity and making the AI actually pleasant to drive against, I took the time to examine the AI strength relative to the player using my usual evaluation technique:

    Tracks: Oulton Park International / Brands / Donington
    Weather: Current date, random dry conditions
    AI: 95% skill, 50% aggression
    Setup: Default
    Race type: 5 lap custom race, no practice, no quali, standing start
    Field: Same class, player mid field,

    My rule of thumb is that these settings should allow me to at least make a podium, if not win, without having to drive at 11/10ths. Looking at best times after the race, the player should be 0.5-1 sec faster than the field.

    I've been sim racing for a long time and I'm a reasonably competent driver. I like lower powered openwheelers and low/medium powered tin tops as a rule, which has skewed my car selections a bit. Feel free to add your faves.

    Well behaved:
    • ARC
    • Caterham Superlight
    • Copa Classic A (Chevette) - FWD AI cars are generally faster
    • Copa Montana
    • F3 (309)
    • F Trainer
    • G40 Cup
    • Ginetta GT4 Supercup
    • German Group A
    • Ultima Race
    • GT3 (Macca)
    • GT4 (Ginetta)
    • GT5 (Ginetta) - my absolute fave class in the game. Perfect.
    • GTE (Corvette)
    • Porsche GT3 Cup (4.0)
    • Stock car 1999
    • Stock Car 2019
    • Stock Car 2020
    • Stock Car 2021

    Borderline (need to drive at 10.5/10ths just to keep up):
    • P2 (Sigma)
    • P3 (Rocco)

    Dodgy (need to drive at 11/10ths, still 1-3 sec slower than field):
    • F Vee - this needs to be dialled back to F Trainer levels
    • Mini JCW - AI don't suffer from on-throttle understeer and kill me out of all corners
    • P4 - totally insane, the AI have 50hp on th eplayer
    • Sprint Race - used to be a lovely competitor, now unbeatable.
    I'm pleasantly surprised by the the fact that a reasonable number of the classes I like are actually not unfairly advantaged. However those in the dodgy class are seriously overpowered and really could do with a look at.

    Hopefully this post catches the eye of a dev or too, in which case allow me to thank you for the latest changes to the AI in 1.2.4.1. I think you've really hit a sweet spot, just need to get some BOP and relative performance issues sorted and they'll be as good as AI can be.
     
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  12. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing. Verify everything. Have Fun Reiza Backer

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    Above is : Very informative easy to test from this list


    Agreed. using your levels tested at Brands and Monza 71 they are fast for 90 level esp at 90/50. (imo)

    Agreed.

    car tested was mcr 200 identical for ai and player
    (the lower powered as the p4 duratec has 115 more bhp?)
    I will try my regular cars and levels to see if overall they are faster as indicated in the ai bug thread by others below.
    :::

    I may not be the quickest driver around, but I can usually hold my own on any track at around 100 to 110 AI strength, but at Monza, they are just far too quick in a straight line and I have to run around 80 to 85 strength to do similar lap times. They are, however, fairly slow through most of the corners, making most of their laptime in the straights.
    I think in this last rendition of the AI they got a lot of top speed and lost a lot of corner speed and traction out of the corner.

    :I think in this last rendition of the AI they got a lot of top speed and lost a lot of corner speed and traction out of the corner.::
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  13. Apex

    Apex Active Member

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    Seems the side-by-side thing could be track-related. Tested the Retro G1s at various historic tracks.

    Imola '72 and Spielberg '74 are pretty bad. Silverstone '75 (w. chicane) is a rather different experience and the AI line up nicely after T1 and seem to dice more reasonably and in places where it actually makes sense to gain a position.

    I can't keep up with them at 100% anymore. Maybe they got better after the latest update, maybe I'm just rubbish and this is how it's supposed to be lol.

    Duh - just realised there's a new update out. Never mind what I just posted.
     
  14. XTRMNTR2K

    XTRMNTR2K Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Just shut down AMS2 after trying out various Monza versions for a couple of hours, mostly hotlapping. First off - great track. I especially love the 1971 10km version without chicanes, as well as the '91 layout - I had all but forgotten about it!

    However, when I tried a couple of races I noticed issues with AI strength, lines and aggression, especially considering there was mention of lowering their speed below 100 strength (which is greatly appreciated by a slowpoke like me!).

    Here's the first report:
    • Car / Track used: Corvette C8R (player) / GTE + GT4 Multiclass @Monza GP Modern
    • AI Strength setting: 70 & 75 (tried both)
    • AI Aggression setting: 50
    • Session Distance: 5 Laps
    • Weather when the issue was observed: Dry / Light Cloud (real weather @default date)
    • Player Tyre: Default / By Weather
    • Type of session when the issue was observed (practice / quali / race): Single Race
    Despite the low strength and aggression settings, the GTE AI regularly carries more speed through corners than should be possible. At the very least, it's much more than I would expect at the lowest strength setting. Starting at P9 (middle of the GTE class) the most I could do was stay somewhat close (~2 seconds) behind P3 for most of the race, and that was with me driving at 11/10th (I'm no Senna, after all).

    It also seems that the AI is able to break unusually late (probably due to being able to go faster through most corner than the player can do), and there isn't any noticeable weakness in their lines; something I'd expect at 110 Strength, but not 70.

    EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention - AI cars seemed strangely aggressive even at 50, sometimes giving me love taps from behind at the end of a braking zone or shortly afterwards.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  15. XTRMNTR2K

    XTRMNTR2K Active Member Reiza Backer

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    • Car / Track used: Formula V12 @Monza GP '91
    • AI Strength setting: 70
    • AI Aggression setting: 50
    • Session Distance: 5 Laps
    • Weather when the issue was observed: Wet / Heavy Cloud (historic weather @default date)
    • Player Tyre: Wet
    • AI Tyre: Wet (?)
    • Type of session when the issue was observed (practice / quali / race): Single Race
    Right from the start, the AI rockets away as if the track was dry and they had perfect traction. Getting a good start seemed impossible to me with this car in these conditions, and I've tried several times.

    Generally speaking, the AI is reckless and tackles kerbs as if they weren't even there, sometimes resulting in hilarious jumps and crashes. That being said, AI vehicles accelerate and break much, much quicker than should be possible on a wet track, and they seem to be able to carry more speed through, but especially out of turns than would be expected.


    • Car / Track used: Formula V12 @Monza GP '91
    • AI Strength setting: 70
    • AI Aggression setting: 50
    • Session Distance: 5 Laps
    • Weather when the issue was observed: Dry / Light Cloud
    • Player Tyre: Soft Slick
    • Type of session when the issue was observed (practice / quali / race): Single Race
    Same setup as before, just in dry conditions. The AI still gets a much, much better start (in fact, I was surprised and shocked to find that when starting from a standstill, the way the rear wheels broke traction felt almost exactly like before in the rain - maybe a bug?).

    As before, the AI carries far too much speed through corners and accelerates out of them like a space rocket. Their behavior with regards to the kerbs is even worse than in the wet, as each lap would see at least one or two major incidents at the chicanes, especially the first one.

    Before these two single race attempts I had actually done some practice by myself with this particular car and track combo and felt like a fish in the water. It was a combination I felt rather confident about, so imagine my surprise when the AI ate me for breakfast on the lowest setting... :eek:
     
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  16. deadly

    deadly Active Member

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    Monza 1991:
    Formula V_10 Gen 1 and 2

    AI is enormously fast in corners, rushing over the kerbs just like they were not there.
    And as they still go side by side for ages, there are a lot of incidents in the chicanes.:(
     
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  17. ControlLogix

    ControlLogix Member

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    Monza 2021
    Formula Ultimate

    Using the stock setup on Formula ultimate, I am running around 1:21 or 1:20. With AI difficulty set to 120, and aggression at 25, I am usually going from 20th to 1st within 10 laps. Any way to increase AI difficulty?

    Also, one other point, the AI is crashing a lot. Not unusual to lose 5 or 10 of the 19 AI opponents in the first lap. Also, some of the AI cars, after crashing, will just stay on the track where they were when they crashed. AI cars should maybe disappear if they haven't moved in a lap or so to clear up the track.

    All in all, still great to have Monza available!
     
  18. Flo Renz

    Flo Renz New Member

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    AI at Monza 1991 is much too fast

    Class:
    GT Classics
    AI LVL: 92%
    AI AGGR:65%

    On other tracks I always qualify in the mid field but here I'm 7 seconds off the pace. The AI goes into the Lesmos with no breaking. Through the chicanes they are also much faster. The only corner where I'm able too keep up is the Parapolica.
     
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  19. SaxOhare

    SaxOhare Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    AI very Slow on Monza 1971
    • Car / Track used: All Formula Classic Gen's Monza 1971 and Monza 1971 10k
    • AI Aggression setting: 50
    • AI Strength setting: 120
    • Session Distance: 1h - 10 min - 10 laps
    • Weather when the issue was observed: Dry / Light Cloud
    • Player Tyre: Soft Slick
    • Type of session when the issue was observed (practice / quali / race): Single Race

    Formula Classic Monza 1971 120/50
    Gen1; My time is about 1:08.500 fastest AI is 1:09.200 and in the race I gain at least 1 second per lap.
    During a race I drive away from the field to never see them again,
    only the first time through the lesmo they come close because they are blistering fast there,
    Same pattern with the Gen3
    The Gen2 AI is matching my laptimes, but they are also to slow on the straights and to fast in the Lesmo and Parabolica
    Edit: I just saw this is with 80% boost pressure for Gen1

    On Manza 1971 10k I gain about 11 seconds in one lap with 100% boost pressure.
    ME 1:47.800 vs AI 1:58.800 (This with an engine killing setting but I can't keep the engine cool with 100% radiator opening)
     
  20. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    My impression is the AI has gone downhill in the last few patches. They are now way too aggressive no matter what setting the aggression is on, never yield an inch and always stick the nose in, with predictable consequences. Worse, in too many classes the AI now get unrealistic grip out of corners compared to the player. The difficulty only changes how slowly they enter corners, but then get the same unreal acceleration out of them. Every corner exit sees a swarm of angry hornets buzzing in your rear mirror. They're just not particularly fun to race against compared to what they were after 1.2 was released.
     
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