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Reaction to Ermin's Video

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by steelreserv, Apr 22, 2021.

  1. Zeraxx

    Zeraxx Active Member Reiza Backer

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    In RST you do, its more or less the "Wheel Spin Graphs" only difference vs a wheel velocity graph is wheel spin normalizes for the vehicle speed aka long. slip ratio. As far as the graphs he posted, those graphs are very clearly not the driven axle which doesn't have a diff anyways.

    A locked diff will always cause both inside and outside tires to spin at the same velocity. The difference in 100% locking is in the definition that the sim uses. You can have 100% locking on the diff and still see a torque difference that causes the differential to unlock, but you wouldn't say that diff is fully locked you would say that it's open, when the diff is locked you will see both the inside and outside tires spinning at the same velocity.
     
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  2. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    Which graphs are you talking about? If the one from R3E I posted, I can ensure you that is the rear wheel rps difference in %. The front wheel rps of course is not controlled by a diff and would exhibit much larger differences.

    While I would agree, my point was that some other sims do not model it in this way. Indeed, RaceRoom appears to always allow the diff to be slightly open. This can be seen even in the one car that has a spool in that game. What I wanted was to show that broad statements based on comparisons such as "the diff in AMS2 doesn't behave like every other sim, therefore the physics are wrong" don't make sense because those other sims could be (and often are) wrong too.

    Every sim cuts corners somewhere, then fiddles with the parameters no one has information about to make the cars drive nicely. This was the magic wand used by Niels Heusinkveld on AMS1. The difference is, AMS2 doesn't have a lead physics guy making 40-minute videos where he hypes the features of the sim that exist more or less in every other competent sim while glossing over the limitations.
     
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  3. Zeraxx

    Zeraxx Active Member Reiza Backer

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    While I would agree, my point was that some other sims do not model it in this way. Indeed, RaceRoom appears to always allow the diff to be slightly open. This can be seen even in the one car that has a spool in that game. What I wanted was to show that broad statements based on comparisons such as "the diff in AMS2 doesn't behave like every other sim, therefore the physics are wrong" don't make sense because those other sims could be (and often are) wrong too.

    Every sim cuts corners somewhere, then fiddles with the parameters no one has information about to make the cars drive nicely. This was the magic wand used by Niels Heusinkveld on AMS1. The difference is, AMS2 doesn't have a lead physics guy making 40-minute videos where he hypes the features of the sim that exist more or less in every other competent sim while glossing over the limitations.[/QUOTE]

    Yep fully agree with that statement, and what I was trying to elude to in my post.
     
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  4. Synaks

    Synaks Member

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    Anybody care to react to the new video?
     
  5. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I unsubscribed, so didn't know there was one ;)
     
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  6. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    I just saw it, and it sounded like a fairly genuine account of a typical journey through time falling into and out of love as you go. Let's face it, none of the games we adore so much we call them sims are the absolute bees knees - they all have plenty of warts.
     
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  7. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Is there any useful content? If so, I will relent and go consume it. If it is Ermin's personal experience of falling in and out of love with various sims, or AMS 2 specifically, I'll pass. I already know he is a promiscuous devil who can't be trusted ;)
     
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  8. Cully

    Cully Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I turned off Ermins latest effort when he said he quit AC and then found his true sim a few weeks later in pcars2.
     
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  9. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    . . . but then turned to rF2, . . . until others pointed out it's flaws, at which point he then turned to the Ultimate Sim, ACC, . . . at which point the others agreed with him.

    They all now reside in a place called Happy Valley. :p:D
     
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  10. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Talk about riding the popularity train. Then I always wonder why I am playing AMS2 more now and the others less. I do miss brigehampton. But still, I am not sure why he considers himself the definitive sim channel. Its like he made up a title then headed towards obtaining it on a set of merit-standards he devised on the fly.

    Above all - I wish he gave the game another go because what a tragedy - he has no clue how good it is now. I got turned off ACC when I found out by observation it dumbed everything down and seemed to be helping me be good at it; the cars felt obtuse and the setups left me scratching my head as to the results. Meanwhile one of his videos he just loves hitting the curbs and cutting them. Other sim channels just do videos about enjoying games - I think he is so caught up in placing them as number 1, 2, 3.

    Maybe he should switch to war games - then we will all know which war game we have to play in order to succeed as a 4 star general whenever we must take up arms in the future.

    I like the guys video production, topics, style and insights I just do not agree with his conclusions about AMS2.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  11. Lab Pong

    Lab Pong OG Sim'er

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    He knows how to use a camera and edit software very well, full props!

    But otherwise...he is like all of us regular humans with no special insights or abilities.....only opinion and personal preference....which seems to be a unstable scale for himself.
     
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  12. bobbie424242

    bobbie424242 Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    .
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  13. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    I think AMS2 needs a magic wand. They're very motivated to make the physics internally consistent and universally accurate based on real world empirical variables. I think they're making it harder than it needs to be on themselves and on us, the users. Granted, they've gotten really close here. Im not saying their strategy wont work. But I feel like you could at least magic wand things that dont work until you fix them, or allow certain edge cases (think certain cars) that are afflicted by things to be massaged slightly to make them feel right.

    But with a tire model-based game like this, half the time I wonder if they do feel right and we just can't tell because we're not in the car feeling the g-forces.
     
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  14. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. If AMS2 was truly the simcade that many detractors say it is, Reiza would have a lot fewer problems making the cars drive nicely. They could just put fake differentials in all the cars that are conveniently open when you need them to and closed when you need them to, and side-step the whole lift-off oversteer discussion because one slider could be used to add or remove as much rotation as needed into each car. And why bother with dynamic tyre pressures and temperatures across the tread and the carcass when you could just dictate an optimal pressure of 27.5 psi in all conditions for maximum grip. Genius!
     
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  15. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I think it's actually harder than we think to fake stuff in an engine designed to represent realistic physics to the extent possible.

    One-by-one, components of the cars and the physics engine are being "straightened-out"--and yes, sometimes one element has to be worked on at a time to determine not only its impact, but also its relationship to other elements. All pieces have to work in harmony to end-up with a natural-feeling and realistic model in the end.

    I have no doubt that Reiza has already used short-cuts, approximations, temporary values, and any other trick in the book while evolving the whole platform. And some elements may get trimmed or left at global values (at least temporarily) if they are too complex, troublesome or otherwise mysterious. But with a small team, it seems the only option is to go down the single development path that produces the greatest gains in the shortest time and keep evolving that work plan as progress is made. Renato has already stated many times that some elements have taken longer than initially estimated to get a proper handle on. I have stated many times that if that noble purpose is the cause of delays or progress not happening as fast as we thought, then so be it because the end result will be a better quality simulation that we will all be thankful for in the future. All of the DLC and other aspects of the game are underpinned by the quality of the simulation. That's what sets AMS/2 and Reiza apart from others. Squeezing the most possible from a simulation engine--even more than the originators of the engine! It happened with ISI and it is happening again with SMS.

    AMS (1) still has simulation features today that haven't made it into rF2 yet...
     
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  16. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Member

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    That's true, Reiza looks like they can find good stuff in others' tech.

    Is it me or AMS1, AMS2 and rF2 has very similar feeling from tires? I can switch between them and I am always very happy with the feeling. Every other game is "worse" = different feeling. But it's strange because it must be pretty hard to build AMS1 feeling on new engine.
     
  17. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    I can't play AMS1 any more. The FFB just doesn't feel as good as AMS2 with rFuktor 4.x, the physics of many cars feel floaty and you spin too easily with little warning from the rear tyres. Also the camera now makes me motion sick having become used to AMS2. The only thing that it does better than AMS2 for me is the communication of weight transfer, which I hope will still get improved with a combination of FFB and camera fixes.

    Going back to Pacejka model -based sims is hard after AMS2, although I put up with RaceRoom because the multiplayer is so good there.
     
  18. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Member

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    That's interesting. I still very like AMS1. But I am on a gamepad so no FFB or vibrations. And I don't have long time experience with it. I just loved it immediately after try.

    To me, R3E is completely different and I don't like it too much. R3E feels like PC1 to me from tire perspective. I wonder why rF2 is so similar to me to AMS2 because it should use different approach.
     
  19. Kevin del Campo

    Kevin del Campo Active Member

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    Id love to see a double blind test (I know this is pretty much impossible given the fact you need your eyes on the road) with people driving different sims with their own wheel and see how they would react to different FFB/Physics models.
    Let alone on a controller.

    I think a lot is probably placebo, visual/audio clues etc.
    Ofcourse there are differences, I think I think AMS2 has the best FFB ive ever felt in a sim... but when it comes to an actual Pepsi test I really wonder how many people would be able to pinpoint what sim theyre playing.
     
  20. Beccobunsen

    Beccobunsen Active Member

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    The simil approach is @Renato Simioni sensibilty to get how he thinks the sim must go
     

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