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Too much lift off oversteer?

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by LugNut, May 8, 2022.

  1. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Yeah correct, the setting basically influences the idle throttle indeed.
     
  2. LugNut

    LugNut Active Member

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    Hi,

    An update....I turned tc off in setup and while the 720s was more slippery than it used to be, I could manage the rear coming around w driver input.
    So my uninformed opinion is there some amiss with tc with this car in multiplayer. I say that because with albeit limited testing, in TT mode I don't have an issue with this car (or the merc...since its the same problem for me).

    Basicly I think the merc and the 720s tc in mp is messed up when it comes to spin recovery.
    But at least for now its no tc for me in gt3...hey I could make a rap out a that:)
     
  3. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Setup wise all the GT3s are in their (hopefully) final state. The 720s will receive one last one soon though.

    Thats not to say stuff like ABS, TC or certain elements of the tire sim will be final. There’s always things to explore and improve. Just setups. So that we can limit the # of resets moving forward.

    Re: the merc, and this may not be welcome news to some, but with this last round of tire revisions, my observation is that track to track player adjustments are more important than ever. Even basic stuff. They have a real tangible effect on drivability.

    I drove a MP race at LB last week and made a few changes simply based on the expectation that the tires would overheat, to great effect.

    Fwiw, I stiffened the front ARB, increased TC, softened the springs a click and opened the ducts to 100%.

    When in practice or qually, watch the tires. They will tell you what the car needs as far as driving inputs and/or setup adjustments. Tires tires tires.
     
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  4. SRS13Rastus

    SRS13Rastus Member

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    Jesus something NEEDS to be done about the 720S!
    Even the most recent update it STILL understeers like a shopping trolley with a broken wheel. Whereas before you could PUSH through (for example) Pouhon (and still can in the other cars), the 720S requires full lock, 27+PSI fronts and STILL you have to lift like mad just to get the car to rotate making the problem even worse. So bad I've seen the fronts go from green to red and from 80-110 degrees C in that one turn.
    Seems like there's a "KILL THE 720S CAUSE IT'S OP!" whilst the rest can actually handle...
    Even taking reasonable care (which will lose you 1-2 seconds a lap) there's no confidence the car is going to go where I want it to.
    It's like the nerfing it got waaaay back when are just compounding with all the recent updates and ruining the experience entirely.
    Thanks for killing GT3 for me and other Mclaren fans entirely... GG guys!
    If the 720S handles like this IRL (I KNOW it doesn't from friends lucky enough to drive one in anger on a track), then Mclaren should hang their heads in shame, quit cars and stick to prams instead..
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
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  5. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    So you are reporting understeer in a thread that is about Lift-Off Oversteer. About the same car.

    Are you expecting any helpful reply or do you just want to vent a bit? Because it will always be the same:

    Reset Setup, make a save and change from there.

    You have lots of headroom left, by changing rake and wing alone already (a thing that the 720S also is quite sensitive to).

    Decrease front damper slow bump, increase rear damper slow rebound, increase rear ARB.

    You can reduce front bumpstop setting.

    There is lots of stuff that can be done, nothing is nerfed, the 720S is still the quickest of the GT3 in the game...
     
  6. SRS13Rastus

    SRS13Rastus Member

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    No I mentioned it here because:
    1) it's part of the same damned handling issues the 720S has had since 1.3.6.1.
    2) the guy tasked with default setup changes posted just before me and MIGHT actually do something about it.
    Either way. The car STILL has MAJOR issues with understeer on corner entry, same for TOUCHING the power in ANY corners and STILL has a marked amount of lift of oversteer.
    You just cannot trust the car anymore to achieve repeatable results one lap to the next.

    And FYI yes, I DID reset to defaults and retune the car by process of elimination.
    It's still an overcooking tyre monster regardless of changes made.
    As for it being the "quickest GT3 in the game". It's not anymore. last month I was having outstanding races with others fighting tooth and nail all the way with Porsches and Merc mostly.
    since 1.3.6.1. I'm not even able to keep up with the BMW's let alone the Mercs and Porsches because doing so will shred the tyres cause it's got naff all "front end" anymore.
    Enter a corner at a moderate speed, try and apply the Gas even just trying to maintain corner speed) and NOPE! All you get is massive UNDERSTEER city.
    Powering out of the exits you STILL stand a damned good chance the rear end is gonna snap on you because of the unpredictable nature of the car.

    Porsches and Mercs rule the roost since this update, hell even the BMW is faster on some tracks.
    As for online racing you get left standing in nigh on every corner because you STILL cannot trust the car to repeat the same handling lap to lap.

    It USED to be the rears getting too hot now the fronts cook before the rears get to running temps. From memory the BOP was adjusted over a year ago to pander to the Porsche/Mercedes fans out there, when THAT was done the front end grip became a complete joke..
    A car that was a joy to drive is now a total dogs dinner..
    And for pity's sake open the brake ducts on the default tunes.
    THAT issue is so damned bad I don't even enter default sessions..
     
  7. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    Out of curiosity, what are your wheel degrees of rotation set to?
     
  8. Scraper

    Scraper Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Something seems amiss here. Real-life onboard videos of the McLaren 720 GT3 at Pouhon show drivers moving their hands 90 degrees at most. When I tried the default setup (steering lock at 19), I didn't have to turn the wheel much at Pouhon. In fact, the minimum steering lock of 14 degrees was much closer to the real-life videos. If anything, I would like the steering lock extended a degree or two lower.

    @SRS13Rastus If you have to perform "full lock" at Pouhon in the Macca, it might be an idea to look at your wheel profiler and then re-do the AMS2 wheel calibration process to see if there is an error somewhere.
     
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  9. Gazzawesty

    Gazzawesty Skunkedup

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    I think the 720 is superb now...I even managed a couple of race wins online yesterday
     
  10. SRS13Rastus

    SRS13Rastus Member

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    @azaris Same as I've used for over a decade (180 degrees), most hate it but makes catching slides much, MUCH easier.

    @Scraper, been there, done that advice is appreciated though :)
    What irks me is that even with the low rotation I use (and to great effect usually) is, that the car more often than not requires full lock through Pouhon or the car continually goes off track whereas, before you could hammer it through there with no issues.
    It's like the front end completely gives up all grip at the slightest hint of "on power" steering.

    @Gazzawesty I beg to differ about the handling, I've set WR's in TT with it and whilst (I've had no issues with all the other cars getting the same rework only the 720S feels like a complete bag of bolts compared to how it felt 2 weeks ago.
    E.G. GT1 just set a new WR at Nords last week, did the same thing before the update at Watkins Glen, so it's not my imagination, the 720S just inspires no confidence whatsoever that it'll get round a corner without burning up the fronts, going wide AF or spinning out for no reason.
     
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  11. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    Okay so you're just scrubbing the front tyres to red hot by running unrealistically low DOR and causing immense understeer but could get away with it with the earlier physics.
     
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  12. SRS13Rastus

    SRS13Rastus Member

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    Not at all...
    What I'm concerned about is that in EVERY OTHER CAR the problem does NOT exist.
    Just the 720S.
    IF this affected every car in the same way I'd quit and go play something else.
    And therein lies the rub, if ALL of the cars have had the exact same changes made then ALL of them would be suffering the same issue but they are not.
    So yeah it's just me being a useless idiot? Thanks for that!
    1500+ hours in game and I know absolutely nothing????
    SUUUURE!!!!
     
  13. Scraper

    Scraper Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Have you tried verifying the game files?
     
  14. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Nothing was done specifically to the 720s to "nerf" the car.

    The 720s is probably the best example of a car being able to take particular advantage of squishy tires affording it phenomenal amounts of mechanical grip on top of a pretty decent amount of rear aero.

    Even if it is just a 5-10% increase in rear contact patch size, this allowed players to throttle earlier, throttle harder and yet, the car still had enough power to create power oversteer (and rear slip angle). With the larger (confidence inspiring) rear contact patch, aggressive driving lead to a near uncontrol able amount of rear tire heat imbalance that only the most skilled or observant drivers could manage.

    This created a situation, from my own personal observations and experience, that lead to a car being considered the most competitive car in the category by lap time (by far) and yet at the same time become disastrously undrivable by a large portion of the player base after 2-3 laps of hard driving.

    (Indeed, most GT3 MP public lobbies were packed with the 720s out of necessity and 3/4 of them would inevitably be facing backwards in the grass at some point during the race, sometimes taking out other player cars in the process.)

    With the updated tire model, the 720s does not have the ability to take advantage of the softer tire any more, since the contact patch is much more realistic. Meaning, the rears have a certain % less mechanical grip while cornering and on corner exit.

    The car still rotates very well and has great power though, so to maintain grip/heat consistency for a racing scenario, under these new circumstances, the car needs more stiffness to the front than what it typically needed.

    With the latest iteration, I believe we struck a fair balance with the 720s to not only keep the natural characteristics of the car intact, but at the same time provide a more consistent driving experience by default.

    tldr: its simply has less mechanical grip on the rear
     
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  15. SRS13Rastus

    SRS13Rastus Member

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    Yeah, the rears aren't the problem though, it's the fronts completely cooking in a single lap. sometimes in a single corner.
    And yeah the 720S BOP was adjusted and I specifically remember the front end grip being reduced.
    and being repeatedly nerfed such as.
    "GT3 Series: Added 15kg to Mclaren 720S, subtracted 10kg from Mercedes AMG GT3, added 10 HP to Porsche GT3-R for improved BoP".
    Also the front aero was adjusted which was when the front end grip was shot to hell.
    Point is the car is practically undrivable, tbh it's worse than when the game had the massively unpredictable spin problems because you can get no confidence the car will turn in and as said touch the power to even try and maintain a constant speed mid turn and off into the weeds you go.
    Does the Merc BMW and Porsche have the same problems? NOPE.
    Corner entry the fronts go from grip to scrub instantly, regardless of the care taken.
    Corner speed is MASSIVELY compromised by the exact same issue, as is drive on exit.
    Having spoken to the lucky few people I know who've driven the 720S in anger at a track they're of the same opinion, the 720S drives absolutely nothing like IRL.
    How about fixing the issues the OTHER cars have vs the McLaren instead of nerfing one car because "it's too fast for the other cars"?
    And what you've listed above isn't nerfing the 720S????
    Riiight....
    The point I'm trying to make is that what was a great car is now a donkey, people I used to fight tooth and nail with in both Porsches and Mercs now leave me standing in every turn wallowing about trying to stop the tyres from cooking.
    The default setup is now undriveable in the extreme because you just cannot trust the car to do as you'd expect ANY race car to do...
    And for pity's sake open the brake ducts on all the car default tunings, sick of brakes burning up cause they're stuck at 50/50 and just do not cool down effectively as a result.
    Every other car has benefitted from the driveline and tyre updates except the 720S, that's just gone backwards and is now no fun whatsoever to race in because all you can do is freak out about tyres overheating and if you're gonna spin round in the next turn.
    So again the 720S HAS been nerfed in favour of the other cars in it's class...
     
  16. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Honestly, mate at some point it's enough.

    Repeating the same over and over again doesn't make it any more true. You are assuming things that are factually incorrect.

    The point is: You want more turn-in and less hot fronts? Calibrate your DOR to the realistic and correct values for starters!

    Soften the front of the car, go more rake and less wing. This is great for hotlapping, because you don't need to compensate the less grippy rear with stiffer front for that, but not everybody does just WRs on leaderboards in single lap goes.

    You are used to exploiting tire slip angles under load, this has changed now, you don't get away with this for some cars anymore at all.

    Nothing has been nerfed in this revision.
    This was confirmed by 2 persons officially working on the cars, now!

    The 15 Kg isn't a change that has influence on the revised tires. It still does 2:15 times at Spa in its current TT config obviously, which isn't a "donkey" or undrivable at all.

    I can take Eau Rouge flat easily in this "donkey" and Pouhon isn't requiring even more than 15-20° steering input here. Whatever the lucky few people told you, but they certainly didn't told you to reduce your DOR to 180° and expect one of the most directly steering cars not to plough.
     
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  17. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Again, the 720s was not nerfed.
    It uses the same tires as all the other GT3s.
    The car handles fine and has become more race sustainable. (I literally just raced against it at bathurst and it had 2-3 seconds on all other cars).
    The brake ducts on all cars are 50/50, that's probably not going to change.
    Please have your 720s GT3 experienced driver friends PM me.

    Other than that, im not really liking the accusatory and disparaging tone you've been displaying, the changes to the tires and subsequent setups were not a personal thing, its just the way it played out.
     
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  18. Dicra

    Dicra Local Gamepad Ambassador

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    Could you provide a video on that? Would be interesting to see, because what you're describing could be either a car problem, a driving style problem or a setup reset problem.

    I'm not a GT3 fan at all, but when I tried the McLaren after the update, it felt as decent as a car from that class can be (I thought the BMW was horrible though, completely unpredictable rear, planted for a second and a merry-go-round in the next), but I'm not the best judge on that.

    It's hard to get a feel for physics problems on a video, but it's even harder by description alone.

    EDIT: Nevermind, I should maybe start reading followup posts when browsing through threads I haven't read before.
     
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  19. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Torquey turbo car, open the throttle slowly and don't fear using a bit more TC actually. It has a lot of punch even by seeming quite "unspectacular". Same for the M8 GTE btw.
     
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  20. Dicra

    Dicra Local Gamepad Ambassador

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    That "opening the throttle" thing is where my struggle comes from actually. Because it feels planted when I initiate the throttle, I just give it full beans, spinning in the process. Slowly opening the throttle feels counter-intuitive when, at first, there's grip that then disappears (I tried to predict that point with my throttle inputs), but I'll give it a try and see how it affects the pace, cheers!
     

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