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WHERE IS LIFT OFF OVERSTEER????????????

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by florian ray, Mar 6, 2021.

  1. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    If you really want lift off oversteer, go more rear ride height, stiffer rear damper rebound values and springs and increase coast ramp angle... (or decrease coast bias for geared diff). Lowering preload will make it occur earlier.
     
  2. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    Problem is, in GT3 cars (for example) the high viscous LSD setting in default setup still interferes no matter your angle, im not sure why they left it that way (esp. since modern plate LSD dont have this setting i believe?), so I had to reduce viscous to at least 50Nm as well as lower preload.
     
  3. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Might be diff hump, what is interferring here. At higher speeds, the diff will then stay locked longer. I have no idea, if you can adjust viscous lock in some way with the GT3 IRL right now.
    But you will get "true" lift off oversteer from other elements than differential only.
     
  4. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    Thats true, you can. But this (for people who know what to feel and look for) is very obvious issue with wheel differentiation, I might stop being lazy and check telemetry :) but I dont think I need to. With lower viscous diff it works fine and you can feel the different angles. This cant be used in retro and vintage formulas unfortunately.

    As for the other setup options, if the viscous LSD setting is what makes it better or worse, why would I try to fix it another way when I can clearly see that this is a problem.. And changing other elements will produce other issues and unwanted behaviour or tyre wear or whatever (like changing aero, toe, damping, camber, etc. )
     
  5. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence German localization/Testing Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    An example:
    This is Bruxelles with the GT3-R Porsche at default setup....the diff is reacting pretty fine even with 100 Nm viscous lock, (throttle on top, wheelspeeds rear on the bottom)

    CLICK
    bruxelle Porsche.png
     
  6. Cyteless

    Cyteless New Member Reiza Backer

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    Here's another test I did - note the decreasing turn radius after the last downshift and as I approach the apex.

     
  7. Tarmac Terrorist

    Tarmac Terrorist Well-Known Member

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    Never been in this thread before, I just saw the title and thought "Its there, somewhere!"
     
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  8. stlutz

    stlutz Member

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    Yep, the excess LOOS that you've demonstrated shows that AMS2 needs a complete physics rewrite. Madness, Madness, Madness. :rolleyes::D;)
     
  9. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member

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    Well actually it demonstrates that the McLaren 570S in ACC has no lift-off oversteer, thereby requiring a complete rewrite of UE4.
     
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  10. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    I've just been reading through this thread, and it was an interesting read. I noticed that there seems to be some confusion regarding terminology leading problems in understanding what people mean when they use phrases like "lift off oversteer", so whether you agree or not, this is my take on what it means.

    Lift off oversteer does not mean lift off and spin, or snap oversteer (someone even mentioned that you don't see GT3s entering corners on opposite lock). Part of the joy of driving a car fast, whether it be in real life or a game, is that you can play with the throttle to alter the car's line, so if you're going a little wide, you can gently lift to tighten the line, or if you're too tight you can apply a little throttle to widen the line. This is where AMS2 falls short relative to both other games and real life, and is the trait that is being criticised.

    While the car's setup will clearly influence its handling, it should not alter its ability to tighten or widen its line with the throttle. Saying that the setups are designed to be safe which is why this doesn't occur is in my opinion incorrect, as even in a real life road car, whether front or rear wheel drive, you can alter its line with the throttle (like we've probably all experienced on a long looping slip road), and you can't get a much safer setup than that of a road car designed for the general public. Something you have to take into account is that in the case of a safe setup, a car may have a general understeer and lifting the throttle will result in less understeer, but this is still a relative tightening of line and is something that AMS2 seems reticent to provide an adequate amount of.

    The statement that cars with spool differentials (a bit of an oxymoron, as there's no differential movement) can't tighten their line with the throttle is incorrect, it's just more subtle. Derek Bell, et al would have had a few things to say if they couldn't alter their lines with the throttle. I remember watching Chris Harris driving a 962 (see
    ) and him being amazed that it handled like it didn't have a spool.

    It was mentioned that lift off oversteer can be obtained if provoked in the right way. This may be taking the (exaggerated) term "lift off oversteer" literally, so provocation might be something as extreme as a Scandinavian flick or something less so like going down a gear to near the red line. However, the only provocation that should be required to tighten a car's line is nothing more extravagant than a throttle lift. I find that often a throttle lift doesn't give me what I want and I end up, rather unrealistically, having to wind more lock on or even dab the brakes, which is really disappointing.

    Why do criticisms like lack of lift off oversteer have to be due to a certain YouTuber? Can't we form and express our own opinions without the generalised pigeon holing that we're fighting someone else's cause? It is my opinion that there is something lacking in AMS2's physics (and not just in this area), but being scared of mentioning things we find odd is neither the route to understanding nor to getting them fixed (should they turn out to be valid complaints).

    I had a little AMS2 time trial splurge over the long weekend, and for whatever reason I did quite a few laps in different cars at Guapore (Formula V10, BT46B, BT44, 1967 F1, Brazilian Stock car, a few Ginettas and possibly a few others, I forget), and this track has a few corners long enough that modulating your line with the throttle is important, and it was often quite hard to achieve resulting in long lifts waiting for it to happen when it should have been immediate. Now I don't know where the problem might be, and while the differential seems to be a favourite, I feel it isn't the whole story. To get to the bottom of it, lots of non-trivial research is required as it's important that any changes are done in the right places to cure the root cause or causes, and I do remain hopeful as it already offers a very good experience (and we need competition to knock S397 into action, as their game has many flaws too that they seem happy to sit on).

    I'm prepared for it, but please don't hate me!
     
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  11. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    Those are exactly the cars that dont react to LSD changes properly.
    Im not sure why people keep doing long videos about GT3, those arent the problem (as long as you reduce and get rid of the viscous locking). Also ACC comparison is a bit irrelevant as they dont allow a lot of diff tuning, especially GT4.

    Problem is with vintage and retro formula and maybe some others. Yes it might not be the whole story ... BUT when we were used to be able to switch to geared diff, it suddenly fixed all these issues. So its a very possible culprit, you can only use LSD now. In those cars you cant adjust the viscous LSD iirc so that might also be a problem. They also suddenly tighten the radius when you get below 80kmh. Its just very odd. As an example, retro Formula with 2 plates, 30Nm and 85 coast ramp angle shouldnt really understeer into oblivion when it slides into a corner (at >80kmh or so)...
     
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  12. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    It's quite clear that the basis of this debate has been muddied due to the mis-application of terminology. The characteristics of LOOS are already established and well defined. It's not a subjective experience (and hence up to subjective interpretation) and its not something you can use to distinguish sim racing titles as it is clear that all the tiles in question have it.

    The conversation is over. AMS2 has LOOS. Period.

    That being said, the phenomenon you and others say AMS2 lacks, is best described as "off-throttle rotation". Suspension plays are role here, but its primarily a function of a car having a different turning radius at different speeds. Slower-Tighter; Fast-Wider.

    I have sources that can confirm that if YTbrs said AMS2 doesn't have off-throttle rotation, other YTbrs would have not replied.

    I've looked into the data for AMS2 (obviously) and ACC. The differential is playing a role here. In AMS2 when the diff is locked, it is hindering off-throttle rotation. Which arguably is its purpose. to stabilize the car. ACC on the other hand, the diff opens more freely, earlier on in the corner. In fact, according to some data points, it doesn't even lock up when back on throttle until late exit. This means the diff is open, like a road car.
     
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  13. Synaks

    Synaks Member

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    I think the reason we've been having this debate for so long is because of a misinterpretation of what each side means by lift off oversteer. The people who say the game lacks it are referring to the ability to subtly control the rotation of the car mid corner via the throttle. This certainly needs to be improved as currently the throttle has very little impact on rotation mid corner while driving under normal conditions. The people who say the game already has it are talking about some kind of snap oversteer from a combination of aggressive steering and throttle inputs. Yes, the game reacts when you absolutely chuck a car into a corner. No, this is not the issue we were referring to. We really should define loo as the subtle car control on throttle for the purpose of this debate.
     
  14. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    The is no "meaning" of the term LOOS when describing the ability to subtly control the rotation of the car mid corner via throttle. LOOS is LOOS. And its not conjecture that "snap oversteer" is part of conversation because LOOS often leads to "snap" and its this snap that is the primary concern with LOOS. When discussing driving techniques and setup adjustments, virtually everywhere, people are discussing how to prevent or adapt to the "snap". Mute it, mitigate it or prevent it.

    We all have access to the same online materials so I'm confused by the lack of consensus on this.

    Its even on wiki for the love of pete.

    Lift-off oversteer - Wikipedia

    https://drivingfast.net/oversteer/

    Lift-off oversteer

    What is it Lift-off oversteer. Encyclopedia

    Technical Mysteries Unraveled
     
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  15. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    I also find it odd how someone can completely misuse an established term but receive virtually no push back from within their own community and moreover, believe and regurgitate everything else said person states about the subject as gospel. In fact, it appears now that the conversation has changed to try and wiggle the "subtle" rotation into the definition of LOOS.

    No. Stop. Get help.
     
  16. Kevin del Campo

    Kevin del Campo Active Member

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    I think the real debate here should be if you need to watch/read hours of tech talk on setups in order to enjoy a videogame...
     
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  17. Synaks

    Synaks Member

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    I think you have failed to consider the fact that there can be different magnitudes of loo, and I have failed to convey that my two meanings of loo in the first post actually describe loo at two different magnitudes. This subtle loo that the game lacks, and you call "off throttle rotation" is not just the result of the car turning better at slower speeds. It is also a result of load transfer from the front to the rear of a car as you lift off, and the game generally fails to portray to this when attempting to achieve small amounts of loo. The second definition is what happens when a large magnitude of loo happens all at once. The issue is that the game lacks the ability to rotate the car in a controlled manner as you lift off the throttle. We ought to be calling it lift off oversteer, as the goal in controlling the throttle in this way is to induce a bit of slip angle(oversteer) to help get around a corner faster.
     
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  18. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    No, you don't. But if you do, some people will get more enjoyment from the game/simulator. It really encapsulates the subtle difference between a sim and a game.
     
  19. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    There aren't two sides to every debate. Sometimes there are facts and established norms. Usually there are many sides, if it is actually a debate.
     
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  20. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    This is awesome. It really is.

    When established definitions as a matter of basic context have no meaning anymore, no wonder conversations like this don't get anywhere in sim racing.

    I simply do no agree with your invented definition of LOOS. So there is no point in moving forward. because any other point myself or someone else makes in the future, you will re-invent something else.

    Its chaos.
     

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