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WHERE IS LIFT OFF OVERSTEER????????????

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by florian ray, Mar 6, 2021.

  1. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    So, to be clear, the term 'lift-off oversteer' is only ever applicable when the throttle is fully closed? A partial throttle closure does not ever count as lift-off oversteer? Is there a point where a partial throttle closure is counted as fully closed (95%, 99%, 99.9%)? I guess it's never fully closed because the lowest setting is when the engine is idling.

    I ask because understeer and oversteer are defined as turning less/more than the steering angle (and oversteer does not mean loss of control or the requirement for opposite lock), so while at steady state a partial lift will cause a mild weight transfer and mild oversteer, at least in the transient sense (because it will settle down given time to a constant turn radius when the longitudinal acceleration reaches zero), and a full lift will cause a larger weight transfer and greater oversteer (possibly, but not necessarily, resulting in a loss of rear traction). Loss of control I imagine is governed by the traction circle (how lateral and longitudinal grip interchange), so if you're on the edge of the traction circle laterally, then any longitudinal load will cause the circle's perimeter to be exceeded.

    The Wikipedia article mentions that throttle closure (full I guess, but it isn't explicit on this) has the potential to cause the car to swap ends, so by it stating 'potential', then this implies a sliding scale of possible responses from a tightening of line to going backwards.

    The drivingfast.net article talks of reducing the throttle to induce oversteer, not fully closing it. It also says that it can upset the balance enough to allow the rear wheels to break loose, so again a sliding scale of responses to a throttle lift.

    I think we're stuck in a semantic war of words, but I don't think people who say they want lift off oversteer want it so that they can spin.
     
  2. Kevin del Campo

    Kevin del Campo Active Member

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    Yes and I think setups should remain a part of simracing.
    But I think a lot of people want a realistic driving experience without being forced into a realistic race car mechanic experience.

    A more realistic feeling and competative default setup would go a long way to accomplish this and would eventually benefit us as well as the devs.
    And ofcourse tweaking a setup further to your own liking/driving style would give you a slight edge over the competition.
    This way you keep it fair and fun for everyone.
     
  3. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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  4. Split Second

    Split Second Active Member

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    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  5. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    Now we are getting into the dirty dark side of sim racing. Some sims focus on driving experience with a loose fabric of physics behind it and other focus on physics first and then the challenge is to set the correct physics parameters to create a realistic driving experience.

    what frustrates me in particular, are those who prefer sims from the first camp calling those in the second camp "sim-cade".
     
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  6. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    I wouldn't say that nobody wants lift-off oversteer, instead I'd say that nobody wants snap oversteer, and while lift-off oversteer can lead to snap oversteer, it is only the case when the lift-off oversteer is severe. Mild lift-off oversteer (what you call mid-corner rotation, which you get through mild oversteer caused by lifting) is what we want to control the attitude and line of a car, and this is currently what AMS2 often fails to provide.
     
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  7. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    Again, I object to the use of the term "Mild-lift off oversteer". You're not going to get it past me.

    Here is why its not appropriate to shoehorn off-throttle rotation into the world of LOOS:

    -Because in the games you are playing that feature rotation, it is independent from the snap variety. You do not need to be on the limit of the tires to get off-throttle rotation. You are not losing grip in the rears. For LOOS you need to be on the limit and the load to change from rear to front.

    -LOOS is inextricably linked to "snap oversteer" because the term itself and discussion regarding LOOS centers around mitigating snap oversteer. Is all snap oversteer LOOS, no. do cars that are prone to LOOS always snap, no, but they can and should if driven incorrectly, have the wrong setup or are forced to with aggravated driving style.

    -If you like an element of driving that is one the edge of snap, that is LOOS related, that's fine, but this is also NOT what is featured in the other titles. There is no edge or limit control. The player simply reduces throttle and the car turns in with NO threat of snap.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  8. Split Second

    Split Second Active Member

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  9. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    A video from AC of FWD road cars is utterly irrelevant to this conversation. I'd suggest which FWD race cars with fairly aggressive race set-ups in AMS 2 you could try, since some exhibit LOOS quite readily, but you don't own the sim, so again are derailing a conversation. Sorry, but it's the truth.
     
  10. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    Well he dabbed the brakes going into the corner, loading up the fronts, got extra turn it (OS), then applied throttle which locks the diff back up and the car stabilizes again. Its not LOOS at all. I also don't think its TC related at all either.
     
  11. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    Agreed, certain 911's are actually INFAMOUS for this:

    The Original Widowmaker - Speedhunters

    I also think @steelreserv makes some good points about the semantics of all of this. Lift off oversteer, as alluded to above, is BAD and you dont want it!

    Rotation on corner entry, perhaps facilitated by trail braking, is GOOD! F-Retros do not have this without HEAVILY loading one side's front tire and then dabbing the brakes hard to break the rear end into a slide. They also seem to be really reluctant to go around tight hairpins. You can feel this at Tosa for example. On corner entry the deathgrip is apparent, only when speeds drop enough does the front tire manage to impart enough rotational differentiation torque on the diff to allow the car to make the corner. It's just... Honestly I don't think it's even that far off from reality, but there's a certain feeling too it that is extremely unnatural. It's like the timing is off or something. You simply cant get them to rotate on corner entry like the open diff cars, but I think with the flexibility IRL of clutch type diffs, this shouldn't be that difficult.

    Reiza agrees, hence all their work on the diffs. I dont know that the diffs are the root of the problem or not, only that to "feel", it seems like they're far too reluctant to allow separation and seem to do this really abrupt unlocking almost too late into a corner even at extremely loose settings. Im starting to lean towards this being a byproduct of some other issue, but my speculation and conjecture is pointless. There are people at Reiza who have a far better idea of what the problem is and are working on it now. I'm just talking about it.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  12. Kevin del Campo

    Kevin del Campo Active Member

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    All technical terms aside...

    In ACC I can steer the car a lot more using the pedals than in AMS2.
    When I release the throttle in AMS2 I hardly notice the balance of the car shifting forward while in ACC, a corner like Sunset at Kyalami or just after going through Curvone at Misano, you really need to feather off the throttle in order not to lose the rear.

    Another thing is upshifting just before a turn. I try to get the last shift done just as I start turning in to move that extra bit of weight on the front for extra grip.

    Ive never been in an actual GT3 car but I have driven a race spec'd Porsche GT3 Cupcar and a Formula 2000 on a race track and to me personally, ACC just feels a more realistic (subjective) when it comes to handling/physics, at least in that aspect.
    It really makes you feel the weight of the car, something I rarely feel in AMS2.
    And I know some people will just call him a shill, but Dave Perel seems to have had at least some influence in this game and says the handling and physics come pretty damn close to racing a GT3 car.

    Despite this (and a few other quirky aspects of AMS2 driving) I have barely touched ACC over the last couple of months beside my league races.
    The immersion, variety of cars and tracks and last but definitly not least the VR implementation of this sim have won me over in a big way.
    But as much as this game is fun in single player I really miss driving against real people and I think at least some of the reasons people are not playing this game is because they want their car to feel realistic and consistent to drive and they dont want to invest hours of their time making setups to achieve this.

    Obviously this is just my two cents here, sitting in a frigging bucket seat in my home office. If Im completely wrong about the handling part Ill be the first to admit it but I find it unlikely from what little experience I have driving on a racetrack.
    In the end I understand this is a work in progress and I really hope these "issues" will be adressed so we will see more people playing it and more money in the pockets of the people working on it.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  13. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    From the links you posted it seems that lift-off oversteer is any amount of oversteer that results from lifting off the throttle, so it can be mild. Agreed, you cannot have snap oversteer without oversteer caused by lifting, but by the same token you cannot rotate the car without oversteer caused by lifting either. Whether or not the oversteer generated by the weight transfer caused by the lift is enough to tip the car into an unrecoverable spin does not qualify it for this special term "lift-off oversteer", as if it is somehow magically different to oversteer caused by lifting, which in a transient sense is just a rotational acceleration (i.e. an increase over time of the steady state rotation the car has due to cornering).

    The bottom line is that you think you're right and I think I am, so I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.
     
  14. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    Sure you can. The diff can change the torque levels of the gripping or slipping tires. This is what the other games are simulating.

    AM V8 Zolder ACC T5

    [​IMG]

    AM V8 Zolder ACC T8
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  15. Kevin del Campo

    Kevin del Campo Active Member

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    You were getting so close to having an adult discussion here..
    Dont give up now.
     
  16. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    Thats funny, i deleted it and then saw this post. you;re right. simply frustrated. im citing definitions, sources, i've provided video examples, explained it 10 different ways. no one ont he other side has come close to the effort i have and yet I get a "agree to disagree".

    i've showed telemetry and now here is telemetry from acc.

    someone MUST have something to back up the feelycrafting and criticism of different sims. still waiting.
     
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  17. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    LOOS is a phenomenon of weight transfer where the rears lose traction. This can be mild and savable by the driver. It can be mitigated with setups. This is known.

    That which is NOT LOOS is the added rotation of the car due to natural deceleration, the front tires getting more grip relative to the rears (not the rears losing grip) enabled or mitigated by the differential settings. I should add that arguably this is not OS at all, since there's no wheel slip or traction loss.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  18. Kevin del Campo

    Kevin del Campo Active Member

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    I understand your frustration, but I thought Andrew was being really civilized. Hence my comment.
    Last thing we need is for things to turn into a bigger ****show than it already is lol.
    Good on you for doing the same sir.

    Im still trying to learn a thing or two in these discussions, Ive been simracing for about 4 or 5 years now but I had no prior racing background or even interest in racing (apart from playing F1 World Grand Prix on Nintendo 64) but I do feel I have enough experience driving sims to have an opinion on how they drive.
    And imho, as much as I love AMS2 it does feel a bit weird and this LOO thing is one of my biggest gripes with it.
     
  19. Synaks

    Synaks Member

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    Here's the problem with this logic, a car going through a corner with any speed has some degree of slip angle. It is not on train tracks, some degree of slip angle is always present when cornering. Braking while turning usually results in an increase in slip angle, thus oversteer.
     
  20. Kevin del Campo

    Kevin del Campo Active Member

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    So I know I didnt use any hard numbers or graphs, but Im curious to know how you feel about my previous post? @steelreserv

     

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