Official General AI Comments & Discussion Topic

AI drives to close to player in the back, they almost touch the car and are very aggressive, is trying to overtake you in spots where it is impossible (corners 10 cm space).
It is not the speed of AI it is there aggressive behavior behind the player

 

Race or street version?

 

Race.

Thanks!

 

It would be really great for immersion and realism if the AI was tweaked so that:
1) They did not leave the pits in qualifying when there is no time to do a lap time. Often AI cars are coming onto the track when the chequered flag is out or with only a few seconds left in the session. (i.e. if time left in session is less than current pole time, do not leave the garage)
2) AI were much less aggressive during a qualifying session and did not race you like it was the last lap of the race wrecking their lap time and yours. (Maybe set the in game qualifying session aggression by default to 25% of the overall aggression setting the player has selected or something?)
3) Following on from 2 above, could the AI cars be programmed to back off and find a space on track before they push in qualifying?
4) Cars were less aggressive when they are a lap down. I have had situations in races where cars in the same class as you are lapped and then if you get slowed by other traffic ahead they start fighting aggressively to unlap themselves which is frustrating and massively realistic. (Again, could aggression of cars a lap down default to 25% of the aggression setting the player has selected or something?)

Not sure if this is the correct thread because this is sort of an AI feature request?

 

Sounds good! Until the proximity thing is fixed one can apply ethics and good sportsmanship. And perhaps the sliders should eventually be named 'Skill' and 'Balls' - that's something even I could understand. Seriously though, I love watching and listening to interviews with the old-timers, and while they raced hard for sure, no one in their right mind would deliberately violate the space of his mates.

 

At this stage I'm not even really sure what the AI skill slider really influences. Lower skill settings get them to take corners slower (on most tracks), but has basically no effect on top speed whatsoever. So on a class with really overpowered AI such as the P4, even at 70% they will be 20kmh faster than the player on straights. On a fast track with few corners to slow them down, you can barely compete against them. Or on tracks such as Bathurst where the AIW has the AI carry too much speed through corners.

 

Car used for all tracks: Formula V10 Gen2
Build: 1.2.4.3
AI settings used for all tracks: 108 (pace), 75 (aggression).
Grip Setting: Heavy Rubber
Setup used: Sometimes wing adjustments; will write down if so.

Adelaide Findings: AI likes to go into the right wall on the inside of the quick right-hander of the longest full throttle section when player is behind, which leads to massive accidents.
AI has superior traction out of both hairpin corners. AI is massively slower into the T1 chicane.
AI Best Lap: 1,03,520 (18,6; 25,5; 19,3)
My Best Lap: 1,02,082 (17,3; 25,4; 19,3)

Adelaide 1988 Findings: AI went for two pretty dumb moves into the last hairpin, one time tapping me at the rear and spinning me round and one time tapping me at the rear and not succeeding in spinning me.
(Screenshots of this are available if needed, however uploading is a bit bothersome because of some aspects of my settings.)
Also they seem to be unreasonably slow out of the quick "S" and (a little less so) out of the corner before the longest straight (not by THAT much, but around 0,3 to 0,4 seconds slower than me).
AI Best Lap: 1,11,160 (22,7; 22,9; 25,5)
My Best Lap: 1,10,099 (22,2; 22,2; 25,6)

Azure Circuit Findings: Take this one with a grain of salt; pad does not like Monaco, and I personally think this track shouldn't exist. However, the AI is horribly slow (time loss around 0,6-1,0 seconds) in the quick Swimming Pool chicane, in Nouvelle chicane and in Portier. They gain around 0,3 seconds every traction zone out of a slow corner, which makes racing on this track very annoying (especially out of Portier, out of the final chicane and out of the final corner). They also like to defend on the inside and then crash into the inside barrier at Tabac.
AI Best Lap: 1,18,595 (21,4; 29,5, 27,6)
My Best Lap: 1,16,260 (20,5; 29,0; 26,7)
Adjustments: Rear Downforce to 24, which made the car very understeery.

Bathurst: The AI does not get affected by dirt, which is frustrating as hell, because they put massive amounts of it onto the track and then get progressively faster than you at the patches where the dirt is. In my first attempt, this lead to a massive crash into T2, which then lead to me being stuck upside down. I couldn't reset, because another driver was also upside down. Two AI drivers were completely stunned by the situation and one of them didn't find the (5m wide) space between us to get past in the space of several minutes).
Screenshots of this are available if needed, but it'd be a chore to upload them for me.
Apart from that, the pace of the AI on this track seems reasonably well adjusted. They were battling when I looked for their times, so I opted to post their best sector times instead of fastest lap.
AI Best Lap: 1,35,7 (38,9; 23,2; 33,7)
My Best Lap: 1,34,8 (38,6; 23,1; 33,0)

Brands Hatch GP: AI is horribly slow into the first corner. AI is horribly slow out of Hawthorn. In both sections, they lose around a second. AI is also too slow when braking for Surtees corner. This leads to the AI being significantly more off the pace than on the previous tracks (except Monaco, where they are also too slow).
AI Best Lap: 1,05,961 (26,5; 19,8; 19,5)
My Best Lap: 1,03,042 (25,0; 19,0; 18,9)

Brasilia Full: This seems to be a generally solid track for the AI; they are however very fast here compared to other tracks. Sometimes it seemed like they get a better exit out of the final corner, out of T4 and out of T8, but I'm not sure that this was down to unfair advantages/disadvantages.
AI Best Lap: 1,23,164 (25,7; 35,7; 21,6)
My Best Lap: 1,23,280 (25,4; 36,0; 21,7)

This is the first part of an attempt to cover all relevant tracks for this car. It's to be continued with Campo Grande, hopefully Thursday.

 

I agree. I don't see where all this effort in "AI calibration" has gone. The AI are on average worse now than they were 6 months ago - 20 kph too slow entering corners, 20 kph too fast exiting them. The same thing across multiple classes on every circuit.

 

Did some race weekends at Monza 91 with the Formula Classic Gen2, 100% strength, aggression between 20% and 100, watching the AI in training/qualifying on the monitor and after races in the replays.
I raced in an open wheeler class, because there, the madness of the AI has much more effect than in some other classes.
Here are my 2 cents about what I observed.

1. I can not see any difference between the aggression levels. No matter if it is on 20% or 100, AI behaves the same.

2. The driving skills of the different AI are pretty much the same. Nobody ever steps back when a faster car comes out of slipstream before corners, trying to overtake. The slower car forces it's way through by any means, rather cuts corners then to let the other driver pass, so they go side by side, ramming each other. Sometimes they do that thing with 3 cars in one pack, which causes huge carnage.

3. In 9 out of 10 races, there were crazy casualties in lap 1/turn 1 (Retifillo), because they all just take care about their line, disregarding that there are other cars on track.

4. Because of their crazy riding in packs without any real overtaking, this carnage in some corners is repeated in almost every lap. When you drive with damage at 100% set to "on", up to 3/4 of the field have to go to pits for a repair or even retire.

5. I always stayed in pits during qualifying, just watching the AI and so I started from the back. I could make my way into the top 10 quite soon and easily by driving cautious, in order to avoid to be part of the demolition derby in front of me and then just overtake the pile up. But then, with the faster turbos around me (I was using the slower model 1), there was no chance to avoid accidents, because the cars from behind forced their way through, without any respect for the racing line in turn 1 and just rammed me off track by going over the curbs as if they were flat.

So, with some car classes, the only way for me to enjoy racing on this track without being attacked by madmen all the time, is to start from pole with an AI strength which is corresponding to mine or even a bit lower.

EDIT: Another thing that caught my eye: When you decide to skip qualifying and go on to race, the AI's laptimes are all over sudden up to 2 seconds faster than they actually achieve when driving on track.


So, how could this be fixed?
First, there is need to give each driver different skills, which differ A LOT, not just a little bit.
Then, it would be great if the best drivers are linked to the best cars, in order to increase the difference of their abilities on track. Now, a driver like Renato Simioni drives a different car each time you start a race weekend. This is pointless.
Finally, the AI needs a better eye for racing situations, i.e.: If a faster car slips through on the inside before a corner, the other should let him pass instead of trying to go side by side through a chicane.
Of course, I do not know if developers have such options within the Madness Engine.

 

Yes, more calibration is needed. But imagine if the slider directly affected AI top speed when our player car is limited to the (sim's) laws of physics... Would make for a pretty boring experience quite quickly as unless you set the AI strength to precisely match your own top speed, it would be a trouncing one way or the other.

AI strength needs to focus on the same issues that allow drivers in spec series or "identical" team mate cars to beat each other: later and better braking, more speed and control through corners, smarter passing manoeuvres. Otherwise we will have incredibly boring and unrealistic AI.

Achieving this is not a trivial task...but it's what Reiza has been toiling away at all along and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

 

AI still seem to be missing personalities (even though it is said the personalities are in already).

They are all slow/fast at the same corners, none of them make any mistakes (such as going too wide, spinning, etc). Also, they always follow the same 'racing line', so before any corner you can predict with 100% certainty the line AI is going to take, then you can go the other way and do the overtake.

The only difference among them are the lap times.

Blue flag behaviour is non existant (on open wheelers series I usually race, at least).

 

I could see some kind of different personalities when doing a custom championship a while ago. But there, each driver was linked to the same car throughout the season, and the same guys were always in front of the field whilst others were backmarkers.

But within race weekends, drivers have different cars each time you start a new one. So, one of the "good" drivers may happen to drive the slowest car (if there are different vehicles within the class) and his advantage is gone.

 

Car used for all tracks: DPI & GTE @Laguna Seca
Build: v1.2.4.3
AI settings used for all tracks: 100 (pace), 60 (aggression).
Grip Setting: Light rubber
Setup used: Stock Setup for the DPI
Weather/Time: Clear, afternoon
Race settings: 30min practice, 15min quali, 60min + 1 lap race

Both DPIs and GTEs go through turn 5 much slower than they would need to. GTEs maybe less, not easy to judge from a faster car.

What I also noticed is that when the leader crossed the finish line and the colldown lap starts, some cars were still in race mode and did neither slow down like the others nor did they enter the pits. Maybe those cars were a lap down. Either way the race should end for all cars after the leader crossed the line regardless of the lap they're on.

 

Build: v1.2.4.3
Car: Ultima Race
Track: Monza modern
AI: 95 skill 50 aggro
Weather: Dry

AI are about 30kmh faster than the player on the straight in between Ascari and Parabolica. Generally reasonable pace relative to player elsewhere on track.

 

Do not see any evidence of this when running at 95/50 or my usual higher settings. In both cases, the car is doing the same top speed on all long straights. Nothing funky about the straight leading up to Parabolica.

 

As long as the AI isn't overpowered I think this is pretty ok. After all it takes more skill to get the corners right than slamming the throttle on the straights.

This is pretty much the way it works in PC2 as well, and a feature I liked about that game. In my experience, the aggression slider (in both titles) works as a sort of skill multiplier and makes the AI more keen on overtaking.

 

Idk nothing makes me want to quit the race and shut down AMS2 more than seeing the AI run away from the player on straights because they have 50 hp more. Maybe someone else finds that "challenging".

 

Car used for all tracks: Formula V10 Gen2
Build: 1.2.4.3
AI settings used for all tracks: 108 (pace), 75 (aggression).
Grip Setting: Heavy Rubber
Setup used: Sometimes wing adjustments; will write down if so.

Campo Grande Findings: AI is too slow around the fast 180°-corner after the longest straight. Apart from that, their exits out of slow corners are (as almost always) too strong (almost unmatchable even though I'm a second quicker than them per lap), especially out of T1 and out of the last corner.
AI Best Time: 1,03,753 (18,5; 20,8; 24,3)
My Best Time: 1,02,506 (18,1; 20,4; 23,9)

Cascais Findings: This track has many traction zones where the AI is simply too fast at the moment in general. Their speed out of the clunky chicane is unreal (gain about 0,5 seconds); they are however much slower than the player into the next corner, so you gain the time back there. You also lose a lot of time out of T1, which you then gain back in T2.
AI Best Time: 1,18,220 (29,3; 21,8; 27,0)
My Best Time: 1,17,600 (29,2; 21,6; 26,7)

Cascavel Findings: The AI does not get affected by dirty air, which is very annoying on a track like this, because they happily race in packs while you struggle to even remotely follow. They are very, very quick out of T1 (gaining around 3-4 tenths), but they lose that time into T3. They are also somewhat slow into the second to last corner (but, as always, quite quick out of there).
AI Best Time: 0,45,623 (11,6; 16,4; 17,6)
My Best Time: 0,45,259 (11,9; 16,0; 17,2)

Curitiba Findings: AI kept crashing into each other in the T1/T2 complex. They are also a little bit too quick out of the last corner. They are too slow into the hairpin in S2, and too fast out of it (as always in this type of corner).
AI Best Time: 0,57,559 (15,5; 24,6; 17,4)
My Best Time: 0,57,580 (15,3; 24,5; 17,6)

Curvelo Long Findings: The AI gets absolutely insane traction out of T2 (around 0,7 seconds gain). In general, you can assume the AI to be too quick out of slow turns, but this is excessive. They are then too slow in the quick left-right combinations of S2 (most notably the second one), and they don't take the third-to-last corner flat, which the player can.
AI Best Time: 1,24,739 (28,3; 26,8; 29,4)
My Best Time: 1,23,597 (28,5; 26,2; 28,8)

Daytona Road Findings: This track is horrible for the AI. Many sharp turns, which accentuate all their problems, and it's insanely frustrating to race them here. They brake too early for every single hairpin except T1, and they are far too quick out of every single hairpin, especially out of the two hairpins before you get back to the oval. The pack racing is also an issue, with them going 5-wide on the oval at times. The AI are also too slow on the straights.
AI Best Time: 1,25,216 (34,8; 30,5; 19,9)
My Best Time: 1,24,280 (34,4; 30,3; 19,4)

Donington Park GP Findings: AI are too quick out of both hairpins, but too slow in the chicane (around half a second time loss, if not more).
AI Best Time: 1,08,779 (14,5; 25,8; 28,3)
My Best Time: 1,07,283 (14,5; 24,8; 27,9)

TL;DR: Reiza, PLEASE fix the AI acceleration out of corners. This makes offline racing unpleasant and mind-numbingly frustrating. They are completely out of balance with the player car; quick where the player is slow and slow where the player is quick. Superficially, just looking at the laptimes, it seems to work decently, but it's definitely not.

 

Great reports mate, you are absolutely right, especially on the TL;DR bit.

 

Thanks for taking the time to look at this mate. I just jumped on to confirm it again with the ultima race and I think the issue is related to turn 1. That is, if I take too much front end bodywork damage in that turn (more than about 10%), which is easy to do, then the top end speed on the back straight suffers. Starting at the back of the grid and giving the ai a wide berth in T1, I kept up no worries. Thanks again Marc