G27 rattles around center position when driving beyond the limit

Hi folks,

sorry to come back to that issue, but I feel it has gotten worse over the last couple of months. My concern is the audible and tangible rattle of the G27 around the center that occurs especially when quickly correcting slides and driving beyond the limit. It has gotten so far I've lost all confidence in driving a car even near that zone.

Of course I set up everything in the system settings like it should be (center spring off and so on), but I also tried to fiddle around in the controller.ini which helped to some extent but doesn't satisfy me any more. Maybe the car I drove the most recently, the Ultima Race, amplifies the problem.

There's a sim on the market that's been around for more than 13 years doing this considerably better IMHO: Live For Speed (LFS). I'd go so far to say its FFB still is the benchmark for me, as it is lively and dynamic on one side and smooth as silk on the other – especially in the department that's my main reason of concern: driving beyond the limit and correcting slides. I just had to test it again and the FFB still handles beautifully there. I could slide around for hours without having to fear that my G27 is just going to disintegrate, without giving up a certain "weight" of the wheel and feel of the car.

Could you guys probably have a look into that? Maybe even test-driving LFS for reference? Below I've attached my controller.ini settings, maybe I'm even responsible for that "glitch" myself? By all means, it seems that the perception of FFB is a very subjective matter, but maybe there's somebody here who has similar problems. Help would indeed be very much appreciated.

[ Force Feedback ]
FFB Device Type="1" // Type of FFB controller: 0=none 1=wheel, 2=stick/custom, 3=rumble pad.
FFB Effects Level="1" // Number of FFB effects to use: 0=No Effects, 1=Low, 2=Medium, 3=High, 4=Full, 5=Custom.
FFB Gain="0.60494" // Strength of Force Feedback effects. Range 0.0 to 1.0.
FFB Ignore Controllers="0" // Do not use FFB on: 1=controller1, 2=controller2, 4=controller3 (or add values to ignore multiple controllers)
FFB Skip Updates="1" // Some drivers can't handle a quick FFB update rate so use this parameter to skip the given number of updates (0=full, 1=half, 2=one-third, 3=one-quarter, etc.)
FFB Throttle FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
FFB Brake FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
FFB steer vibe freq mult="0.20000" // Controls frequency of steering vibration. Recommended: 0.5 to 1.0, 0.0 disables steering vibration.
FFB steer vibe zero magnitude="0.03500" // Magnitude of steering vibration at 0mph (reference point).
FFB steer vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB steer vibe zero magnitude).
FFB steer vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB steer force prediction="0.00100" // Time into the future that force is predicted, to help counteract wheel latency (0.0 to disable)
FFB steer force max change="100.00000" // Maximum change per second based on current difference between calculated and applied force, to help avoid jerky behavior (values under 15 or so should reduce jerkiness, 100 disables)
FFB steer force neutral range="0.04500" // Max distance from center "neutral force" location where forces are reduced to help avoid oscillation (0.0 to disable)
FFB steer force neutral function="1.00000" // Function to apply near neutral force location, in order to tune out FFB "deadzone" but keeping oscillations in check: 0.0=original, 1.0=new
FFB steer force exponent="1.00000" // Steering force output "sensitivity". Range 0.0 to infinity. 0.0 to 1.0 = higher sensitivity, greater than 1.0 = lower sensitivity.
FFB steer force input max="-11500.00000" // Recommended: 11500 (-11500 if controller pulls in the wrong direction).
FFB steer force output max="1.80000" // Maximum force output of steering force, recommendation 0.8 to 2.0
FFB steer force grip function="1.00000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0 (previous hardcoded value was 1.0) - lower values will make steering force decrease LATER as front tire grip is lost - try 0.3
FFB steer force grip weight="0.90000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4 to 0.9. How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering force.
FFB steer force grip factor="0.10000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.2 to 0.6 (previously hardcoded to 0.4). How much of a factor the front wheel grip is on the steering weight.
FFB steer front grip fract="0.00000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0 (previous hardcoded value was 0.0), additional effect of front grip loss on steering force
FFB steer update threshold="0.00000" // Amount of change required to update steer force/vibe (0.0 - 1.0). Lower values = steering force updated more frequently = lower frame rate.
FFB steer friction coefficient="0.10000" // Coefficient to use for steering friction. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer friction saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering friction. Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB steer damper coefficient="0.17500" // Coefficient to use for steering damper. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer damper saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering damper. Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB throttle vibe freq mult="0.17000" // Scales actual engine frequency to force FFB vibration frequency. Suggested range: 0.10 to 0.50
FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude="0.09000" // Magnitude of engine vibration at 0rpm (reference point).
FFB throttle vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude).
FFB throttle vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB throttle vibe update thresh="0.08000" // Amount of change required to update throttle vibe (0.0 - 1.0)
FFB brake vibe freq mult="0.90000" // Scales actual brake rotational frequency to force feedback vibration frequency.
FFB brake vibe zero magnitude="0.10000" // Magnitude of brake vibration at 0mph (reference point).
FFB brake vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB brake vibe zero magnitude).
FFB brake vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB brake vibe update thresh="0.05000" // Amount of change required to update brake vibe (0.0 to 1.0)
FFB rumble strip magnitude="0.25000" // How strong the rumble strip rumble is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.
FFB rumble strip freq mult="0.60000" // Rumble stip frequency multiplier 1.0 = one rumble per wheel rev.
FFB rumble strip wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB rumble strip pull factor="-0.50000" // How strongly wheel pulls right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.
FFB rumble strip update thresh="0.07500" // Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)
FFB jolt magnitude="1.00000" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.

 

Same problem here from day one.

 

Yep it look likes it is getting worse, especially the new content cars.
Is seams that the new cars in game have this problem more then the old ones,
It makes it hard to make small corrections in fast corners with cars like the Boxer and F1 1967.
The wheel snaps through the ffb resistance of the FFB, this in combination with the "sling-shot" effect, some of the new cars FFB have, makes me spin off.
The cars that are in game since the move to AMS have this problem far less or not at all.

 

True. The stockCars are almost perfect.

 

Try making this 0. There are other differences from my .ini, which is working fine, but I think this line is the culprit.

 

I had this at 0 previously and it made no difference to me. Thanks for the hint, though.

 

Here goes my file if you want to find something else. (Remove .txt rom the name)

 

Thanks for that. Your file seems to be quite stock – or did you change something in particular I may have overlooked? What I like is that it's not as loose around the center compared to my values, but the rattling doesn't go away unfortunately. What is you FFB strength in the Logitech Profiler?

Are you driving with or without the real-feel plugin? I usually drive without RF, but I switched it on for comparison and instantly got remembered why I disabled it in first place (and do so with every update). With RF I get the rattling nearly constantly, even when turning into a bend mid-speed without changing much of the turning angle. This is irrespective of the used *.INI-file.

Thanks for attending to my issue. Yes, I did, both, twice and again. The only thing I didn't enable in first place was center spring. I did now and tried values of 0, 10 and 20 % without significant difference. For the record, my FFB strength in the Logitech Profiler is 100 %, ingame it's 60 %.

One suspicious thing I came across was this behaviour (at least triving the Ultima Race): Even when sliding across the grass wildly and in a quite childish manner, the rattling definitely stays. This leads me to the conclusion that the force that is applied to the G27 and that changes very quickly and roughly through the whole FFB range under these circumstances (like @SaxOhare mentioned above) is NOT related to the grip of the tyres since this should be nearly zero on the grass, constantly – or am I completely wrong?

For now, I'm completely out of ideas. AMS is definitely one of the keepers in sim-racing, but – at least for me – undercut by this issue as driving gets very unnatural and unpleasant in these moments.

 

I remember to have changed some things quite a while ago, but I'm not sure if I got a stock one recently when I started playing again or not. The Low Force Boost option made it better than always, so no reason to change anything here.

My profile strength is 100% and everything else at 0.

I do nothing regarding RealFeel, which (I think) means I drive with it. Maybe that's what making it rattle? An original file re-download would help perhaps.

Here the G27 almost never rattles, only on grass or dirt.

 

This is crazy. @Heitor Facuri Cicoti Which version of the Logitech profiler are you using?

 

So this is a version from 2010, right? That implies that I don't need a recent driver for a fully and smoothly working G27. Can this be officially confirmed, at least for the moment?

Besides, I'd be thankful if somebody could upload an absolutely stock controller.ini here. Since I've modified the *.cam files I'd like to circumvent a complete sync of my AMS installation.

 

I did further testing, without success unfortunately. Logitech profiler version 5.10.127 seems to be the latest working properly on most systems (@Heitor Facuri Cicoti and a friend of mine with a similar setup confirmed that).

What I did to this date:
– checked my settings ingame and on the profiler according to AMS' manual
– checked the controller.ini which is now original again
• tested different values there for "FFB Skip Updates", without significant difference
– checked driver version of the Logitech profiler (Is there anything speaking against using 5.10.127 on Win 7?)
– disabled Low Force Boost
– disabled RealFeel
– to exclude hardware failure I compared the behaviour in different sims like LFS and RaceRoom with the result it's much more refined there

Are there any other files I might have a look into?

Maybe I should upload a video to highlight the behaviour that's been driving me so mad recently?

EDIT: Just for fun I had a go at the latest version of StockCar Extreme and I must admit: It was a blast! I compared the StockV8 of both games. Even with some definite oscillation around the wheel's center position now (which at least for me was neglectible – a racing driver should always hold his wheel firmly! ) the steering wheel instantly gave me so much more information on what the car was doing, even when driving way beyond the limit and producing slight and controlable load changes.

Maybe this could be the culprit? I remember people criticizing these oscillations in the earlier stages of development (reads: Game Stock Car). To get rid of these the forces around the center position had to be anullized and recently, were brought back with help of the so called „Low Force Boost“, because people criticized again what was now the dullness and lightness of the steering wheel.

Considering the forces applied to the front wheels and – as a result of that – to the steering wheel during strong load changes: Shouldn't these be at the high end of the scale then? Now imagine catching a spin by quickly countersteering with the steering wheel passing the center position, where the forces are anullized and amplified artificially for the sake of oscillation-free straight-line driving, and rising again to the max when facing the other direction – the more I think about that, the more it makes sense what my G27 does under these conditions! The rattling just seems to be the result of the G27 going through these states way faster than it can handle. This is just proper speculation, though, and not meant to blame anyone at all.

 

Another thing I found out during my endless testing sessions: The amount of rattling seems to be directly dependent on the steering wheel resistance of the given car. Cars with lighter steering (Formula Vee, Caterham 360R) are less problematic than cars with higher steering resistance (StockV8, Ultima).

 

I did experiment further with the values in the controller.ini and I'm now quite happy with the behaviour of my G27. It still has a good feel of weight transfer and the rattling only comes up every now and then.

I'm using an ingame FFB strength of -100%, Low Force Boost is set to 0%, RealFeel is OFF.

The file attached only contains the FFB part to not mess up your controller settings. Please remember to backup your old file first before making any changes!