What do you think is the most significant reason AMS2 userbase is so small?

Source?

 

But you are still making the mistake of getting into analyzing AMS2's success and potential, without reviewing how its predecessor did fare. Personal thoughts on what X game is mean little in this discussion.

Point being: there are so many arguments that go outside what the actual product is, and people still get obsessed on physics, graphics, sound, UI, AI, netcode, matchmaking, pricing, and so on. How many driving games that are utter garbage with poor value have sold more and have more success than AMS2? Countless. And that includes sims.

If it was a matter of pricing and negative reviews by users and real life racers, iRacing would have collapsed by now, but the service is still going strong and you can find nearly 10k racers online at any point of the week.

I would start by analyzing Reiza's history, their product roster, and the success of everything they have done up to this point. I would bet on reasons that lie outside of AMS2's current state.

 

I dont know him - but I also doesnt care about him as a source for this.
BECAUSE the feeling of a racing sim is so personal and individual a thing that it doesnt matter.
Matter for anybody else than yourself.
An example is that I use a lot of time on Racerooms TT mode - eventhough I consider the feeling of the cars more or less hovercraft-ish.
But a lot of raceroomers does consider the same feeling exceptional autentish and "realistic".

 

Why is this a mistake? Predecessors were not good enough, so it makes sense they did not sell very well. AMS2 is fantastic (or potentially fantastic) on every level, so it has the potential to sell bigtime.

That's what we are discussing, why AMS2 still hasn't surpassed other sims. But IMO there's none racing game that's "utter garbage" that has sold more than AMS2. Please name one.

 

Because product quality does not equal to sales, success and worldwide recognition.

Any Need For Speed game of the last 10 years.

 

It's not the only factor, but I think it's at least a very important one.

Why are they garbage? Don't they still have amazing gfx, immersive career/story and tons of content? (honest question, I have not followed the series lately) They may be garbage from a simulation point of view, but that's not what they are trying to be.

 

AMS was labeled one of the the best Sims ever by the community and I for one really enjoyed it.....yet hardly anyone played it regularly with an avg player base of 100ish.

AMS2 has nearly tripled that with a newer engine, which makes me happy.

I feel the majority of sim racers outside of Brazil are really not interested in the Brazilian content.
Yes, they have added some non Brazilian content with the dlc, but have only added a few select pieces that are currently popular with sim racers atm. All of which can be had with better variety in every other sim....so why leave your go to sim with better variety to have less?

The lack of polish in all aspects of the game is another issue until it gets sorted.

I now the game is a long term plan and Reiza will eventually get the best out of the title.
But not everyone is happy or willing to pay a $150+ for a WIP title, that currently has a few good combos, mediocre ai and a small mp base.

As for the DLC/season pass....I passed on the season pass as it was $130 cad and not bought any of the dlc's on release day. I've waited hardly a month after each dlc and got them for 50% off during steam sales.

My playing time is limited these days with family and work, so when I can play, I want a game that is better all rounded with a variety of content that interests me.

As it stands, AMS2 current state, I basically fire it up after each update to see if past issues I experienced have been addressed and to test new features.

Once the next build is released, the player counts will spike like it has in the past as all the "content creators" rush to do a review to collect there YouTube likes.

 

A couple key differences though
1. Ams1 was originally billed as a stop gap while Reiza delivered their new sim
2. No VR support
3. Lack of brand name cars and tracks
4. Based on a very dated gfx engine.
5. When AMS2 came out, it was awful and there were very clear physics/driving issues that weren't helped by the fact the staunch defenders denied all these and blamed the users for their bad setup or driving technique only to later find out, yeah, there were issues.

 

Im your source he said it to me when i asked what he thought about AMS2 , he answered like a snarky so and so too.
The hilarious part is he also admitted to me he didnt even play it, says a lot about the guy tbh.

 

I think he meant a link to the stream. He knows you typed the message.

 

I must admit, this bugged me too and didn't help that the same attitude was around during the development of PC1 & PC2

 

I know that , it was back in lockdown well over a year ago probably more, maybe the stream vlog is still there.
So unless its still there im the source

 

I think the problem was in slightly greyer and different terms than this.
Early in AMS2 life (still partially today) there were two "extremist factions": when an issue would arise there was the "catastrophist" faction picking any issues (e.g. the differential odd behavior) as a confirmation that Madness Engine as a whole was hopeless, or in some other cases demanding that every other activity of development be stopped to correct the issue (the cause of which was only partially known till much later in the e.g.) and in absence of this correction went in every forum, YT video etc to basically trash the whole thing period or saying the developers are incompetent/hopeless and everything in between.
These people also were completely deaf to any suggestion that while a given matter was finally sorted the game could be played meaningfully with fairly extreme settings: in their minds it was either perfection there and then or "bust" and anyone who was suggesting setups workaround in the meantime were considered dangerous collaborationist with developers to provide a poor and substandard simracing experience to the whole community. Another take on this was the typical turning of setup suggestions or alternative driving techniques into "he told me I don't know how to make a setup" or "he told me I have to get good at driving" accusation for anyone who talked about workarounds to alleviate issues even after acknowledging the issue was there.
Some eminent streamers even considered ANY setup adjustments in general as cheating and completely repelled the idea of setup workarounds (although many of them would be happy to ride on no ARB setups in RF2 for example).
On the other side there was another faction were (much fewer tbh) people neglecting that there was even an issue and telling unceremoniously to the others to bugger off, yes that is true as well.
It's worth noting that there have been cases where egregious physics issues were found later in both the cars the "catastrophists" liked and the ones that the "bugger off" liked just to show how futile extreme positions were.

Both of them though failed to realize that the truth was in the middle and right in front of them: for instance in the case of the differential, the settings needed to achieve a definitely not optimal feeling were surely too extreme so an issue was there and at the same time, the possibility of using setups workarounds meant that there was a problem of parameters tuning hidden somewhere not that the entire thing was doomed and eventually it would get fixed.
Especially the first faction was very vocal and considered this "mid-ground position" as heretic anyway. There was no "in-between" possible for some reason and I talk about my personal experience in the community which is why I really despise the white knights who pretend to defend the integrity of the community that way.

This sort of very polarized split in "factions" has been the fil rouge of the entire AMS2 story on many matters (for physics at least until v1.3) and for other subjects as AI or MP features is still there. xyz known and acknowledged issue must be addressed here and now and anyone who don't agree or agree but dares to propose any temporary workaround becomes instantly an enemy of the simracing community.
IMHO this ends up damaging the sim reputation (especially when people start taking it to reddit, forums etc.) for no real reason and ultimately the same community this people pretend to defend and in no way can really influence the developers calendar of fixes (the list of which is still very long) because they are already evidently maxed out.
We all see that fixes are coming along, not at a hugely fast pace but continuously. We know what pace we can expect, we know we are talking about a relatively small developer so it will take still long time to correct all the things.
At the same time this is not really news in simracing: all other regarded sims have been around almost for a decade and are not very far ahead in the curve bug fixing and features implementation for one reason or another tbh. Trashing one of the most passionate and persistent developers because they are not fast enough isn't making simracing market any better IMHO.
One thing is being unsatisfied and moving on to something else which is fully legitimate and understandable but dooming the entire construction and anyone who disagrees or just proposes a way to enjoy what good is there while the fix comes out is toxic and isn't helping anyway.
As is not helping taking frustration and retaliation against developers to forums.

Why things seem to heat up this very specific way for this sim? I really don't know but I suspect it has to do more with SMS period than Reiza.

 

Some good points in this thread, some are on point & some not so much lol. I have been into sim racing from way, way back starting with rF1,GPL dialup! (I'm old as dirt lol ).
To me AMS2 is still in its infancy & just cutting its teeth as far as driving sims go. The latest builds have produced some good results as far as game play goes and as a result, we have been pushing this game in our league racing at SRO. (SimRacingOnline is a multi sim league / site made up of a groupe of us that came from Race2Play when they closed their doors some 6+ years ago?, featuring all the main stream sims with a member base of over 2000 of which 20% are active at any one time, I post this info just to show how fickle sim drivers actually are).
With AMS2 the numbers started out low but have had a steady increase as players (some trying AMS2 for the first time) get a feel of how good the driving actually is! and its one of the best in VR or so im told by our VR users.
For now, we are only hosting one event at a time with the current series being the 74' Porsche cup championship. Then starting in April, the 98' Cart series has already started to fill up!

Although we are only dealing with & concerned about the MP side of the game, I believe as long as the game continues to prove its self alongside the current 'popular sims' It will continue to grow, but it does take time.
I will say the MP side that's inherited from PC1 & 2 is 'less than ideal' from admins point of view, lacking some basic tools to run a proper league event & all, that said we have managed to adapt and have started having some epic racing on our servers!
So, remember anything good/great is worth waiting for & we believe AMS2 is just getting started..

 

I think the Brazilian content is just an opportunity to introduce people to it. Since it's not well known in Europe you can't use it as the main attraction but it will fit in nicely when they start offering organized racing. Especially mixed together with the British tracks.

Draw people in with popular content, then use that opportunity to introduce them to new things. That's how most of us got into this hobby. It worked for Japan in the GT series. How many people know brands like Calsonic, Raybrig, Motul, etc from the JGTC content (notice I didn't say Super GT)?

I never watched CART until the DLC came out and now I think it's incredible.

 

After reading through all of these posts, I've come to the conclusion that my selfishness keeps me happy. I paid for the game and have a lot of content.
I personally enjoy the AI (or I can work around any issues)
I love the championship (yes I understand there is no "wow" factor as in F1xx, but I can make that myself)
I really like the track/car selection and enjoy the weather day/night stuff when playing a 24 hour simulation.
I am currently enjoying a full GTR4 season (fictional but loosely based on GT stuff, both USA and Rest of World).
So, I'm thinking, do I really care if AMS2 doesn't top the charts?
If sales go down, and nobody plays it, everyone stops.. do I care? I still have it. Of course I would feel bad for the developers and the team. I think Reiza is great company.. but I have no reason to complain.
I made a one time purchase of the game somewhere in 2020 and just bought the biggest package I could find and afford. I uninstalled it and waited until it had what I needed. Now I'm about 275 hours into it, and enjoying every minute of it.
I've since blown a lot more money on other things in life.
I've purchased many games that I played a few hours and uninstalled them.
I don't play AMS2 online.
Thus, my selfishness, rears its ugly head. None of this affects me. Nothing to worry about.

Sorry, I'm not sure if my post was really meant to be a response, or just a thought I went through after reading all of these somewhat deflated or sad comments. I feel bad if the game has not lived up to your expectations. I also feel great that I can play it and enjoy it.

So to refer to the OP question, I don't know, but all it needs is a player base of one.

 

Not saying that it's not important, I wouldn't be here if it was garbage. But I think we must look outside the box to understand what is going on.

Up to Most Wanted, yes. It went downhill after that, had some sort of resurgence with Shift, then it has been quite useless since then. All game mechanics are borked, and we are not talking about simulation.[/QUOTE]

 

1. A stopgap that lasted 4 years. That's not a small timelapse between products. And for several months, many of us believed that AMS2 was inferior to AMS1 in terms of driving experience. I don't have that belief anymore, but there are still many out there who think otherwise.
2. It has not hurt other games from being popular. VR is not the be all end all, and I'm a VR user.
3. Same as BeamNG.drive. How is that game's userbase going? Also one that has not VR support.
4. This would be the most solid argument of your list. But then, what happened to the old adage of "physics > graphics" adage of simracing? When did the community suddenly turn their back to this? Because that's exactly what AMS1 was, physics and FFB over anything else. And for years, it was the bar setter.
5. ACC was also awful when it came out. Not anymore, and does not have problems with popularity. Even with a VR support (your point 2) that is frankly awful and renders it useless for guys like me who have a headset but not the insane firepower on their rig to get it going.

I still believe something else is going on (or not going on, depending of how you see it). I think somebody on this page said it well, that it seems to be more of a problem of SMS's image than Reiza's. The arguments that the game still handles cars like PC2 is unbelievably off the mark and I cannot understand how in hell somebody who took the time to drive both games thinks that way.

Oh, and also: the so much hated PC2 still enjoys a decent userbase, much larger than AMS2. Why is AMS2 not attracting those? Reiza has improved on lots of PC2 aspects, yet we are not having them around here. Those who used that title as a gateway drug into simracing have flocked to other titles and ignore Reiza's latest offering.

It starts to feel like Automobilista 2 is the Bermudas Triangle of Simracing.

 

I can totally relate to this. I spend most of my time offline or in time trials but it's not because I don't like online racing, I'm just not really into the same type of racing as most serious sim racers. I'm looking for something quick (3-5 laps) and I don't want to qualify or practice. I seriously want to jump online, be racing in a few minutes and once in the lobby we can do round after round.

It's not that I don't enjoy longer races, they are just huge time commitments and the leagues I enjoy racing with are pretty much always based on European time (just the nature of PC sim racing). I'm sure I totally sound like a console player and I am 100% sure that I would enjoy GT. However I also want realistic physics, VR, etc. so that keeps me offline mostly.

I still think PC2 is the high point of sim racing so far. The fact that it still has a similar playercount as RF2 and Raceroom is proof of that. It stopped getting support almost 4 years ago! A little more development and it would have been the ideal landing ground for the newly addicted sim racers GamerMuscle discussed lol.

However...AMS2 is going in the right direction and when this season pass is fully delivered, it will be able to go toe to toe with any sim, past or present.

If Raceroom can land Ferrari, I am confident Reiza can get it too. Nobody else is going to do them justice like Reiza. Same for Jaguar and Le Mans. Williams and Renault too. It should be very clear that Reiza is passionate about open-wheel and historic racing in general.