I tryd so hard to like it.

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by SJors, Nov 8, 2022.

  1. mansell

    mansell Active Member

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    @Jugulador can you please define "cardboard box sim"?
    thanks
     
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  2. SJors

    SJors Member

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    I agree with you in some points. But it is very hard to describe certain car behaviour, and how it feels to make it constructive.

    As I stated before, for me the front end and initial steer feel sluggish and vague and I can fix it in any way by changing setup of wheel settings.

    More constructive then that I cant be, because I dont know what part of the physics model causes that feeling for me.

    As for the AI, I almost never have AI enduced crashes in ACC, I have had loads (and loads and loads in AC), I dont have much experience with iracing AI, because when I was on Iracing, AI was only a thing for a couple of cars and track. RF2 AI can be good, depends on the content, but that is generaly the case when a sim supports, or allows mods.

    In AMS2, I have a lot of problems with the AI, BECAUSE they dont have the same physics model as the player. They do not have the same break points, specially in wet conditions, and the cut corners, drive on grass etc. All things a player cant get away with. This gives significant speed differences at certain parts of the track, specially breaking and corner steer in points.

    With AI that uses the same physics as the player, at least I know when they break late, the also miss the corner, or when they have a poor corner exit, the have less speed then me on the following strait. Things like this make AI more predictable = safer, because you can anticipate what their car will be doing in those situations.

    So I alwats prefer that AI is on same physics rules as the player, and I know the downside is heavy CPU load and maybe framedips in larger fields.
     
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  3. Jugulador

    Jugulador Well-Known Member

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    Yes

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. SJors

    SJors Member

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    I am very informed, as I have a long history in sim racing, having read everything about RF1 engine, RF2 engine, was original backer of the ME engine, played over 1000 hours on all those engines. Maybe it is you who is misinformed.

    The reason I say you come across as a fanboy is because you are very negative about every other sim apart from AMS2 in this thread, you only seem to read and reply to the points you want to make, and in no way acknowlage that other sims do some thing better then AMS2 and AMS2 does some things better then others.

    You are allowed to defend your favourite sim, but you cannot act superiour about it the way you do. I have lots of experience in simracing, all the way from Geoff Grammond's Grand Prix 3, to live for speed, RF1, RF2, AMS1, AMS2, PC1, PC2, R3E. Iracing, AC and ACC.

    All have their strengths and weakenesess (see, not a fanboy), and as I said in OP, I really want to like AMS2, and I am sure REIZA will be able to get it there in the end, as they always did, also with their 3th party software in RF.

    You in the other hand:"ACC feels like driving a card box". Great contribution mate! And no, it does not. Ask the thousends of daily players. Is ACC my favourite? No, because it is limited to GT3 and Gt4, is it a good GT3 and GT4 sim, yes it is. Do I like UE4, no, I dont, for the same reason may other players don't. See, not a fanboy.

    I think AMS2 made some great steps, I think the level of commitment from REIZA and the way they respect there userbase is second to none and a example for others. The way they monetize the sim is way more honest the iracing (basicly renting content) or RF2 (Motorsport games).
     
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  5. SJors

    SJors Member

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    You think you are funny, but you are not. You say my comments are subjective, but you do not back up anything you claim. The way you respond is very toxic. We ALL want AMS2 to be the best it can be. As does Reiza.
     
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  6. mansell

    mansell Active Member

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    nice. thanks again :cool:
     
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  7. mansell

    mansell Active Member

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    actually his responce speaks volumes.
    didn't expect a more clear answer than this TBH.
     
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  8. stealthradek

    stealthradek Smoothie operator AMS2 Club Member

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    I think different people measure different games using different metrics. I partially agree with @Jugulador with the feeling of other sims. I don't know how to describe it but AMS2 feels more like I'm driving a real car, it's not clinical down to every fraction. It just feels raw and... realistic? I've participated in an endu in ACC and trained a lot for it and it somewhat feels like driving more a sim, not a real car. It's not bad physics or anything, but it feels less organic, more "digital".

    ACC never gave me the same wow factor and adrenaline that AMS2 fed me with spades.

    It could be down to my settings/wheel/expectations or even skill, but I just prefer feeling in AMS2 than any other sim right now. There, I said it :)
     
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  9. SJors

    SJors Member

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    Yes? That picture explains that ACC is a cardbox driving sim? Ok. Then there is no discussion possible. You guys only want to hear, AMS2 is great, ACC and every other sim is bad. Not going to spend more time on singleminded brains. Good luck.
     
  10. SJors

    SJors Member

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    That is great! I mean that. If you find a sim that really caters to your liking thats very nice indeed. I have that with the way R3E feels. But that sim lacks day and night cycle, and a weather system, and the player base is dwindling slowly. Thats why I hope other, and newer sims, give me the same feeling as you have in AMS2.

    As I said before, a couple of things are personal and subjective. I think eveytbody can agree on hoping for always improving AI and more consistency throughout AMS2.
     
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  11. bobbie424242

    bobbie424242 Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    AI is still a real problem for being believable in many cases.
    They are too slow in some curbs, too fast in other sections, leading to yoyo racing where you are faster and slower than AI always at the same points in track.
    Sometimes when you leave an AI way behind, they come back full speed with magic top speed you cannot match. That happens often after passing an otherwise fast AI that has a slow moment in a curb it cannot take fast enough.
    They sometimes run in packs where no car can overtake the others, running 2, 3, 4 wide forever.
    Etc, etc.
    All of this is very car/track/race settings dependent and there are combinations that work better than others.
    I do not see how AI will ever be entirely satisfactory with the myriad of combos possible in AMS2. It will probably improve but this is an insoluble problem to solve.
    The thing is even if it is 95% believable, we humans are very prompt to notice the remaining 5%.
     
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  12. mansell

    mansell Active Member

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    his answer explains his lack of arguments.
    my question was rhetorical so his responce was what i expected. clear and to the point.

    BTW, is not a bad thing to be a fanboy. the bad thing is when you dont know you are one... ;)
     
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  13. SJors

    SJors Member

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    That is why I am a supporter of a system where the AI has the same physics rules as the players. Then at least the car behaviour is realistic and more predictable. AI will never (well, maybe some day) be completely realistic.
     
  14. bobbie424242

    bobbie424242 Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    AI cannot have the same physics than player for performance reasons. Even if it did, it would not magically solve all problems.
    An improvements I'd like to see is AI learning from the player. Like everything, easier said than done...
     
  15. SJors

    SJors Member

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    I now understand how you meant it. Sometimes difficult as English is not my first language. I apologyse to you for my responce based on misunderstanding you.
     
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  16. SJors

    SJors Member

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    ACC has, and yes, that makes it very CPU bottlenecked. But I prefer it. No, it does not solve all problems, but at least it solves the AI car behaviour, removing AI magical catch up, the weird behaviour of the car in breaking zones, the weight of the AI cars etc. It is like canned FFB effect vs Physics based FFB. I prefer the latter.
     
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  17. mansell

    mansell Active Member

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    IMHO there is a solution for AMS2 AI: make the MP better.
    i barely see people complaining about cardboard box sim's AI. not because its perfect but because most people drive the cardboards in MP.

    this weekend me and my team of six we race our cardboard boxes in a 24hrs endurance. ~70 cars grid. pro RL drivers, pro sim racers and devs will compete with us. for charity. with live stewards, real rules, full course yellows, safety cars. im talking about 350+ drivers and 50 people administrating the race. thats the half of the peak population AMS2 will have on sunday. not to mention the stream watchers. THATS RACING SIMULATION in my book, mate... if AMS2 can have in the future something like this, who cares if AI runs three wide uphill buthurst in 5 laps "races"?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2022
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  18. Mazdaspeed

    Mazdaspeed Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    The problem with ACC AI is that it's boring and predictable, just like Gran Turismo. Yes they drive clean, but they also drive boring with 0 dynamism, that devoids the races and championships of any excitment, sometimes a little crazy is more "real" drivers are no computers, they make mistakes and the lesser drivers can be plain dumb, ( the Inoues and De Cesaris).

    No sim is perfect, and if you dont like the game dont force yourself, try it later after more updates and see if it's more to your liking then.
     
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  19. Mazdaspeed

    Mazdaspeed Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Also, I have encountered 0 magic catchup or rubberbanding in this game.
     
  20. sgsfabiano

    sgsfabiano Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Oh boy, some specific people who unconditionally love AMS2 AI and hate MP for some reason will get triggered hard by your post :D
     
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