To Reiza: What physics do you actually want?

Well you make good YouTube videos. Will have too look through your setup guide to refresh my memory

 

Agreed . We need to keep it civil and respectful otherwise people get defensive and stop sharing info and ideas .
Steel mentioned ffb a few posts back and I have often mentioned how a custom ffb file improved the feel and reduced the pendulum effect on acceleration for me .
Certain cars for me are practically undrivable with the default profiles, wonder if this is a big factor in it ?
Anyway, even with these quirky traits it's still my go too SIM and look forward to seeing it progress in the future.

 

I wonder what made you think that, since i never for once offered any services to reiza. Nor do i think they would accept me, i am not "loyal" enough

 

FFB makes a huge difference, I don't think this is debatable. If something is off with it, or the suspension geoms are sending aggravated signals, it can literally have an effect on how people react, input wise. Bumpsteer, camber thrust, caster trail all have a role to play as well, largely in the front of the car and changes in grip in the front, perceived or real can cause weight balance changes in the rear.

Well so you agree that FFB should not affect car behaviour. And if people are reacting to things and fighting against their own cars due to misleading FFB signals, then that is a sign of bad physics, or bad FFB.



The context of this statement was for racing applications and describing how an LSD can cause the rear end to oversteer, if too locked or unlocked. I mispoke though writing "snap" oversteer in the contect of power oversteer. Nevertheless, not all cars are designed to drift, nor are they setup that way in game. As far as I know, no serious drifter uses an open diff, so why would I be talking about an unlocking LSD in the context of drifting? If drifting is you purpose, id suggest locking the diff, stiffening the rear springs and see how she goes. Also, AMS2 has for a long time been accused of being too "drifty", and its been recently ironed out in a large way. So you must be new here.

It doesn't matter how they are setup up. The behaviour i mentioned is universal, regardless of setup or even car configuration. Should i show you videos of drivers powersliding F1s or CART cars out of corners? I never said any serious drifter uses an open diff, read what i wrote again. The drift example was mainly to explain that even in an extreme situation, the same principles prevail, and are the fundamentals for even that scenario.




If you say so. I personally have never had a problem with sway when the tires are not slipping. If the rears start to slip and the diff starts to unlock, the sense of yaw as rear grip changes can cause a player to react (potentially overreact) thereby transferring load to the slipping (unlocked) tire, causing the tire that had traction to start to unlock, and back and forth, back and forth aka sway. This can be aggravated if the rear suspension is too soft as well.

Again, what i said is valid for real cars in real scenarios. It doesnt matter what diff you have, it happens accross the board in the game, and its purely tire related. I dont even need to touch the steering like i said already countless times for the car to wanter.



retros generally have a stiffer rear suspension and softer front, simply because they have to support a big v12 or v8 engine and all the fuel sloshing around. If you look at some era photos, notice the chassis warp on them, its quite extreme. Its debatable as to whether they wander too much though, it sounds like you have spent years driving on a slip graph based tire model, as realistic as that sounds to be.

Making assumptions already are we? I have watched more footage and have more books on those cars that i care to remember. By the way, dont confuse spring rates with wheel rates. They might have stiffer springs on the rear, but that doesnt mean the wheel rate is bigger, it usually wasn't. And yes they do wander way too much in game, but they do not powerslide easily on the throttle no, not in AMS2 and not in AMS1. The only thing different in AMS2 is that they slide more sideways, at the expense of lateral stability.



This statement has raised some doubts in my mind about you. Its hardly an "illusion" created on our part. More like a "delusion" on yours. No one is inverting the natural balance of the cars, in fact its one of the things that we try to keep in tact that people tend to overlook. We try to keep the cars as true to their nature as possible. For example a car with a rearward weight distribution, should enter to corner in a rather pointy fashion, and plant on exit. A forward W/D, the opposite. A car with a long wheel base will resist rotation mid corner, a shorter wheelbase should rotate more readily. When I am speaking about braking zones, I am talking about the margins, not global changes either. Its a fact that a stiffer front suspension will give players a larger margin of error on corner entry, a vital area when racing against other people especially in the hands of a novice. And this stability has to be there for the trickiest braking zones, like turn 1 and kansai. Does every car actually need a more stable corner entry for every other corner in the game, no. But we want players who log in and chose to race at kansai in MP to be able to complete the corner and not take 3 others out in the process. Setups are give and take. If you knew this, you would understand this.

I dont think you keep anything true to their "nature", because if anything you dont seem to understand what the nature of a racing car is. It doesn't matter where the weight balance resides, 90s FWD touring cars had more lift of and corner entry oversteer than F1s. Now if the rest of your post is you trying to admit that you tailor the physics or setups for a subset of players, due to a perceived notion of their skill, then thats a completely different story, and indeed then we might be getting somewhere about what i asked in terms of direction that these physics are going. Setups are give an take yes, but a racing car is built to optimze its potential in all situations, not sacrifice one side massively for not much gain on the other.

 

If someone hasn’t driven a car irl, they don’t know how it should handle. Even after watching videos or reading books on the car

 

Well, I can say that default and default + go crazy with pendulum effects and I have to fight with the wheel.

Kuku custom for me is the best ffb signal, the steering wheel feels firm and I can feel the rubber on the asphalt as I can feel on rfactor 2.

 

Can you send a link? I like the default + FFB, but if I can get exactly that just without the pendulum problem I would be happy.

 

https://forum.reizastudios.com/members/kuku-maddog.21004/

See his signature.

I set to 70 gain, 20-40 fx, 20-40 damper. Fx if I want more visceral sensation and damper depending of the car.

 

Contrary to other posters, I don't think this discussion is bad, or a d**k wavering contest, as some want to put it. I think it's both interesting and productive, but with a couple of caveats.

It's clear to me that both Richard and Steel know what they are talking about. But they are talking from quite different perspectives/levels/positions. What this discussion is lacking at the moment is, from both sides, another way to illustrate the facts; Telemetry traces with video footage that can clearly illustrate what's right and what's wrong. That would bring the arguments closer to a common ground, IMO. There is a bit of misunderstandings between the parts right now.

 

This as far as I'm concerned is the holy grail. I've tried nearly every custom file going and unfortunately what you are hoping for doesn't yet exist, if I was intelligent enough to write my own believe me I would!
The ones I I have found best are from Karsten and Daniel mainly, check out the custom ffb thread and you won't have to scroll back far to find them, they are excellent but there is always a trade off with road feel and details on my direct drive. overall though I would definitely recommend them over the default files as like you said you are constantly sawing at the wheel to counteract the pendulum effect.
I've tried to dumb down the default with full damping in game and wheel base control panel, turned everything down that would have an effect but they are still way too over reactive in my opinion. Shame because otherwise they would be perfect ( for me )

 

Kuku has managed to delete this over reactive signal on his file, try it, is similar to karsten and danielkart but without being too live.

 

I will have to try it, but after using the recommended settings I feel the FFB is actually quite nice. Certain cars have problems, but feel like those problems can be changed with setup.
Thanks for the help, but I am lazy and will just keep the OG FFB and learn setups from the videos of @steelreserv
Edit: the recommended settings I talk about are from Reiza for default +

 

I think its really interesting too. I'm a newer player (owned a wheel for a bit less than a year now), and its hard to shake the gnawing feeling when i drive in AMS 2 that this just isnt how cars should behave. I find it odd that the various issues are acknowledged (in a round-about way problems with physics and ffb have been acknowledged in this thread), yet Reiza continue to release car after car instead of fixing the fundamental issues with their game. When you keep adding and adding without fixing the underlying issues, the tech debt becomes nearly insurmountable. Frankly, with the # of cars in this game it may already be.

 

You sir have just nailed it as far as I'm concerned.
Problem is that I'm not sure if anyone at Reiza feel that what we are talking about needs fixing, I mean it's still great as it is for me but just feel it could be out of this world.
I do appreciate that this isn't a simple task and may not even be possible without starting from the ground up though, here's to wishing though hey .

 

Also I totally agree with you on the quality over quantity, have been suggesting that for a while now tbh .

 

Is there any way to read in telemetry forces and slip percentage/angles on the tires in AMS2?

This would help a lot in objectifying reasonable opinions…

 

While I wouldn't mind if car releases slowed down for a while and more fixes came at next big update, I don't believe it would solve things, for two reasons:

1. Producing content and working on physics of new cars also means opportunities for breaking new grounds with the engine and finding improvements that can trickle down to existing content.

2. Keeping revenue going is also a way of financing the future of the product and the company.

My reasoning is that for everything to work, you need to carefully juggle your resources, or the company will ground to a halt without even making it back to the pits for a refuel