Slicks tyres grip in rain & other problems in AMS2

You and other people who use it as an explanation/excuse for the AI to use completely simplified physics in AMS2 that the average users CPUs cannot cope with AI bots using the same physics/TMs as the player car should maybe check out if some of the other racing games does/did actually use same physics/TM for AI and player car.
Just check out good old NR2003
A game developed more than ahh 20 years ago

And coincidently the game engine iRacing was born on

ByTheWay: One of the exciting things in NR2003 (and all its mods) was that you could build individual setups for the AI bots tweaking the same parameters as in the players setups.

 

Then I would love to see a computer of more than 20 years ago handle AMS2 physics...... Oh wait, they couldn't do that as the physics are way more realistic and much more is calculated...

Saying a game from more than 20 years ago could do it, so AMS1 should also is just nonsense of course

 

We have talked about this before: the computing power has increased, but sims are not able to use it, because it's much more work nowadays to code engines for them to take advantage of that computing power, mainly because in the last 20 years the CPU market has focused more on multi-core capabilities than single core muscle.

 

I think you should look on yourself before you pretty rudely does accuse somebody else talking nonsense.
Because what is completely lacking in your funny logically short circuiting is that the performance of GPUs and specially CPUs has evolved (much) more than the demands from modern games compared to games (old and new) where as example the AI bots use same physics as the human players car.

The difference between the graphics in NR2003 and modern games is obvious but anybody who have used NR2003 and its decendant iRacing can see that a lot of ressource demanding features even from NR2003 is lacking in AMS2. And that is one of the reasons people with some knowledge on this area does admit that the ressource impact by AMS2 is rather low.

Ofcourse both you and people who does believe that its impossible with modern GPU/CPUs to run same physics on AI bots as player car is allowed to believe this.
Without being accused of talking nonsense.
But as I see it its an excuse invented to just to explain away the fact that AI bots in many racing games does behave plain stupid and un-intelligent.

ByTheWay: Im able to run my AMS2 installation on pretty high settings eventhough my CPU is almost so old that it was developed about the year 2003. So much for the extreme demands from modern games...

 

@CrimsonEminence is this true about AMS2?

 

I hope my wording "explain away" is to be understood.
Because even game developers or staff members use such semi "explanations" from time to time

 

Using "lack of compute power" as an excuse for the current crop of sims dumb AI is deceiving as the least.

Back on the days of GP4 for example, those AI bots were even half scripted, and at the same time were a lot more believable racing against than 99% of current generation titles. ACC bots use same physics as the player, and racing against them is not any better than any other sim on the market. Do you see it? CPU power has nothing to do to get a good and believable AI in racing games. AMS1 AI is currently much better than AMS2 AI indeed.

IMO devs need to find new and clever ways to program those dumb bots. iRacing apparently found a way to develop an AI that's better than the competition, and I find that embarrassing as online multiplayer service being the solely focus to them for ages, plus you don't need a supercomputer to play iRacing against bots and have a believable racing experience.

 

I agree with 98% of what you wrote. To have good, believable AI they don't need to be on the same physics as GP4 showed back in the day (though to be fair with AMS2, they where very erratic in wheel to wheel with the player, AMS2 is better in that regard IMHO)and the modern F1 games show now ( maybe they are on the same physics? I doubt but not sure).

I still believe in the potential AMS2 has regarding the AI, because I have had a ton of fun races with them, they are some of the most dynamic and their wheel to wheel with the player is top notch. It's their behaviour in AI to AI, fuel load, tire wear and wet performance that needs the most fine tuning across most classes right now!

Oh, the 2% I dont agree is that I think you are selling AMS2 AI too short. I would not say AMS1 is much better, I would put AMS1 AI close to ACC, well behaved but not too exiting to race against, at least in my time with them.

 

Absolutely agree with this. It is not the case of every class/track combo, but a lot of scenarios is awesome. I couldn't have enough of old Formula USA over classic American tracks, for example. AI, unlike in ACC, does not yield to you in AMS2 when wheel to wheel, they fight, and sometimes even do something stupid.

 

Just to get out of this dicotomy-ish yes/no quarelling discussion that you are completely right/wrong - then I admit I have had similiar discussion about the MUCH more ressource demanding AI called GT Sophy in yeah the console game Gran Turismo 7.
This rather intelligent AI does
1. use same physics as the player car
but also
2. does use a much more intelligent deep learning neural network "algoritm".

My stand in this discussion was attacked with "arguments" like such kind of advanced AI can never be implemented in games AI bots because it will need a supercomputer to run.
But just check out the first step of rolling the Sophy AI out on a console game.
A console game.
Sony does start with 1 Sophy AI bot you are able to compete against - but
OK 1 is not all AIl bots in the game - but Sony did probably just start with 1 because they wanted to check the reception out.
Because Sophy is pretty intelligent and competitive for human drivers. Hehe maybe too "I"

My refering to the "real" intelligent AI in sophy is because if this kind of huge demanding AI with player car physics can be implemented today then its laughtable to say that the extremely simple and scripted un-intelligent bots in AMS2 cannot be made to run on the same player physics.

ByTheWay: iRacings AI with some kind of averaging of how human iRacing cars react in likewise situations is probably a semi intelligent solution positioned between an independent selflearning AI like Sophy and the completely un-intelligent and scripted bots in games like AMS2 (and similiar).

Almost-unbeatable AI comes to Gran Turismo 7

 

Who are you gonna believe: the game devs themselves or some random dude speculating on the forums?

 

A dev has explained why they the ai Isn't on the same physics level. And gave a good explanation as to why. Saying GT7 ai uses the same physics as the player Isn't going to change that dude. Just move on

 

Why this passive hostility - dude?
Its pretty imposible to get some kind of intelligent discussion with persons who behave like you - dude

 

They have actually already had 3 at the same time in the game, though only for 2 or 3 special car/track combinations. I raced it myself, it was absolutely superb, the normal AI in GT7 is still absolutely horrendous though, it seems to be still a long way for even Sony to get this fully implemented.

 

Not AI related, but F-Ultimate Gen 2 with 1.5 physics is AMAZING with weather changes in real time progression.

 

Well, may be AMS1 AI is not much better, but it's still better IMO, and more organic and believable than ACC for sure.

AMS2 AI in my experience can provide a good and believable racing experience in some situations, being BR Stock Cars in some selected tracks and in a short sprint race configuration the best combination to showcase what can be possible to achieve globally as the game will evolve.

Racing fast F1 cars against the AI is frustrating and rage quit inducing when you want to simulate a full weekend grand prix, 1.5 to 2 hours long races. As I mentioned in the AI thread, the tendency to use out and inside racing lines without any penalty nor loss of speed, going over the grass, bumps and kerbs without penalty, is one, if not the main, problem which leads to the AI generate another compunded problems. Having to deal with the car in front almost parking at the apex before skyrocketing to the next corner, while at the same time the maniac you have at your back trying to overtake in impossible ways because that "racing line problem" I described, is not racing in a believable way, it's doing things you never would do normally in order to "game" an unfair scenario presented to you. When you see one of those maniacs bots ride alongside you on Long Beach, with half a car and two wheels literally over that roundabout (or fountain, I don't know what it is) at corner Nº 2 without any kind of speed and/or grip or damage penalty, you just quit the race and close the game.

The stick together bumber to bumper the full race lenght without overtaking nor losing time, the three wide full speed in corners without lap time and/or track positioning consequences, the lack of "intelligence" to properly use the available tyre compounds, the lack of variability in lap times from race start to the 80nth lap after 1.5 hours racing without pitstops as if racing with full fuel load/new tires is the same as low fuel/worn tyres, while the player suffers a lot more for both, etc., are all game breaking AI problems for me that I don't see in another titles. AI needs to be believable and fair to race against, not somewhat scripted or programmed for the sake of presenting an artificial challenge to the user. I'm not saying that's the case in the AMS2 AIs programming, but the end result looks like that.

Do you want a good tin top 10 laps sprint race against AI? Yes, it's possible and may be 5 out of 10 times you will have a really good race when all planets align. For the rest of the content, if you want to simulate a real GP weekend, an endurance race, etc, current AI implementation is not viable at all if you are after immersion and some fair bot racing, while in AMS1 for example that percentage of success is better, even if it is a little bit less exciting to race against, to which I agree.

Anyway, I think I derailed another thread , but in the end and going back to the origin of my post, I think all of those "problems" I see can be solved with clever programming, there is no need to run the bots on same physics as the player. Having an "evolution" of AMS1 AI would be enough to have a great time with AMS2 bots.

Cheers and I'm sorry for the wall of text

 

I'm following this discussion and give a try in F Ultimate Gen2 with AI level 110 and just 10 laps with 4 weather slots (sync with race) to test the AI skill in dry to wet transitions. I believe a lot of trouble to keep the pace with AI in these scenarios - with 1.5 physics - is because AI don't have the same impact as player regards tyre wear. With this setting disabled, Is really easy to keep the pace, even with slicks and intermediate in soaked track. But if you enable tyre wear, AI have a MASSIVE advantage.

For me, propper AI tyre wear is the number one tweak in AI logic to do.

 

I would expect that to start to happen from V1.5 onwards