Can we have a serious talk about PUDDLES?

The Hallmark of this sim title (besides f1 time machine) is the weather system which is heads and shoulders above any sim.

However..after probably 20hrs of rain racing we need to talk:

Holding it back (in my opinion) has to do with Rain.
Main rain issues

• Ai grip
• Puddle effect
• Dry tires on wet track physics

The ai wet grip issue is well known.

Puddles hands down KILL any fun/realism in the wet. I race real cars. Ive never encountered puddles that were like a pond or ice.
Even worse is that the Ai goes through them no problem. In heavy rain (where puddles happen) its almost impossible to see them unless you memorized where they MIGHT be from before. These need to be toned down a lot. like 150%-200%. They should have an effect (mostly on dry tires) but not spin you off at low speeds (60-90kph)

Dry tires on wet track. Having raced formula and Street Touring cars in real life i've raced my fair share in the wet. When I 1st started racing I was astonished how well slicks gripped in wet weather. Its remarkable!
There reaches a point in this Sim where dry on wet goes from being pretty realistic to like driving on ICE at low speeds (60-90kph). This isn't realistic at all from tin tops to low class Formula cars like I drove. This happening with a LMDH is just silly. Slicks on a very wet track you still have decent grip. I have never experienced grip fall off so bad you spin at 50-70kph. Have we seen F1 cars have this happen to? Yes at Malaysia during a monsoon and other EXTREME situations.

Lots of people are scared to utilize the amazing Real Weather system mainly because of these issues.

Please Reiza if you can NERF the Puddles and the Dry Tires on Wet track this game will be:

• More Fun
• More Realistic
• Open up more people to the amazing weather system that sets AMS 2 apart.

 

I think 2021 Lando would like a word.

 

I'm involved in an online championship using real weather, and this week's race was a wet race, with the weather drying out towards the end. On the whole, I would say that it felt perfect. Some of us started on wets, some on drys, both were competitive on the wet track, but the race certainly came to those on the drys as the track got drier and the wet tires overheated.

 

sorry OP. Totally disagree about the puddles.
They feel quite realistic actually considering my own experience owning and driving FWD,RWD and AWD cars, when I do use such cars in AMS2.
actually puddles and rain effects were quite good in PC2 but Reiza mastered it further.
I game in both 4K and VR, and its very clearly visible where these puddles are on the track for me.

AI is OKish in the rain but don't seem to be running on similar physics than us drivers, that I would agree but they are somehow affected by track condition in the various races I did in the rain.

 

AI is programed to slow down over puddles, they don't get affected in the same way we do because they run on a different physics engine, so in compensation they slow down over puddles. Ofc this can be improved further with future updates, but for the moment this is the best solution.

Puddles for the player, IMO feel great, the effect has already been reduced a few updates ago, but again IMO there's no need to reduce the effect further

 

totally agree, to me it feels and drive great, that's actually so much fun that i drive more and more in Rain conditions especially in VR(despite the big hit on performance that is)

 

No they don’t slow down.. If so it’s minimal. I followed an Ai through a puddle it drove on and it sent me in a spin. I was driving at Lemans down a straight with a huge puddle the Ai drive through and didn’t lose speed.

They also “ don’t feel great”. A puddle in real life doesn’t throw you in a spin at 30mph. They also don’t feel like ice.

Are you playing the same game? Everything you said is opposite of what is happening in the game.

 

Have you driven in slicks on a wet race track in real life?

it doesn’t feel right at all after a certain point. I should be doble to drive 60kph in heavy rain on slick but this game I just slide off like it’s ice.

not real. Sorry

 

Like I said there is a threshold where the drys feel good on a wet track then it becomes like ice.

I agree some races it’s fine. But in heavy or long rain sessions it’s undrivable over 50-60 kph. That’s not at all realistic or fun.

 

The only point I can agree with you is that the AI can be too fast on the wet on dry tires. On everything else I disagree, the AI do slow down on the puddles, often losing a lot of time to the player. Try Imola 88 with the F-Classics, I am a good 3 seconds faster than them on the wet compared to the dry.

 

Lucas Auer (and few other during the 2018 Hungaroing DTM Race) would like to have a word. The pits in that race were total chaos, with one pit-crew ending in hospital, because cars loosing control when entering the pit stall.

Or look on Michael Fassbender driving the 911 in Le Mans. Like, he's crawling, yet the car still looses traction and slides here and there.

You're the first guy, ever, that I heard to say that slicks are usable in wet conditions. From what I know, slicks are usuable while the road is only greasy, and you're able to keep temperature in them.
The moment the temperature starts to fall, and there is actuall water on the road, it will become harder and harder to keep on the slicks.

And while I have never driven a race car, I have been watching motosport for a long time, and every time it starts to rain, there comes a point where the times just plummet, and guys on slick will starts to have significant issues to keep the car on the track. All it takes is little bit of water over the road, no extreme conditions.

And puddles are fine. The effect on player car are quite good. You have to remember that it might not be the tyres why you're sliding, you might be hitting the puddle surfaces with your underbody (as your tyre sink into the puddle), afaik this is also simulated.

Hitting puddles at high speed, even with appropriate tyres, is pretty dangerous even in a road car. And you can feel it, i.e. when you hit a puddle in high speeds with only one side of the car, how it grabs you.

AI and puddles is workable. It would be great if they were affected the same way as player, and were forced to take alternative lines, but I understand the technical difficulties in that. They would basically be able to determine if it is faster to go around or through the puddle, and then find an optimal way around. They would also have to do the maneuver in advance, so it doesn't look silly, and doesn't force them to slow down extensively...

My experience is actually that it can give me an advantage, especially when the track is dry, but there are still puddles. Becasue they slow down when going over puddle, you can sometimes gain unreasonable amount of time, just by taking the alternative line.

AI issue currently is that they have too much longitudinal grip (acceleration and braking) in wet. But devs are aware.

And, before you hit the 'disagree' button, try to provide a counter-argument. Show us instances where it rained, yet drivers continued a-ok with their slicks.

 

Don't seem to grip that well:

 

Here you have an example of an AI slowing down over a puddle.

Aaand yes dude, I'm playing the same game, In fact I've been playing this game since release. I don't know why you gotta be so angry when to me it seems everybody here is happy with the way the puddles feel except you. I don't know what else you want me to say.

 

What I do not like about AMS2 puddles is that every time you go over one, it results in significant aquaplaning. I think aquaplaning occurrence should be toned down and its effect more variable (as it is usually always very strong in unsettling the car) with some randomness added to it. The current puddles impact on the car feel very "video gamey" to me.

 

No randomness please, if I do the same thing 10x, I should get the same result each and every time. Going over a puddle shouldn't be a dice roll.

Aquaplaning is not the only way how puddles unsettle a car, going through a body of water will drag the wheel. It is like you applied brakes just on that wheels that are in water. So, if you hit the puddle on edge of grip, when turning, or with only few wheels, the car will get unsettled.

I was recently racing at suzuka, the track was dry with puddles, and there was a big freaking puddle stream just at the end of esses. And I could drive through it, no issues, on slicks. All it took was to approach it straight (so all corners of the car are affected equally), and feather the throttle.

This happens in IRL, hitting a puddle even in a road car, at highway speeds, can be freaking scary, and you can feel how it grabs your car.

 

I think what he's saying is that the effect is a bit exaggerated. However deep puddles do form in heavy rain and sometimes race directors want to keep the racing going. You can debate how quickly puddles form, I've wondered myself if that's correct sometimes, but I didn't know the lobby settings and what the time acceleration was so the answer could've been 'yes', it is correct.

You guys have already posted videos showing that racing in rainy conditions is tricky, but let me post this video again as it shows that heavy rain and deep puddles have a catastrophic impact on the racing. Not sure if you remember the 2019 Rolex 24. ^^

 

Yes this is all i'm saying. Tone it down. Should unsettle the car not send you into a spin or the wall all the time especially at slower speeds.

 

Yes I feel every time it rains you get these catastrophic puddles that in real-life only show up rarely.

 

I'll have to record a video but its happened dozens of times. Ive done maybe 10+ races at Lemans the last 2 weeks and most of them had rain.

Le mans
There are "big" (big in that it throws your car off the track unrealistically at slow speeds) puddles that form at 1st & 2nd Ralenttiseur in almost any rain that requires wets. I lose lots of time having to slow to avoid these on entrance and exit and the Ai just slings through with minimal loss.

Courbe Golf or Buisson a "lake" forms along the right lane of the straight. I was side by side with an LMDH ai and pushed him to the right knowing that lake was in his lane. At 270kph it was a slight hesitation but he still stayed right next to me. I hit that same "lake" and i spin into the wall 100% of the time.
All i'm saying is tone down the extreme effects. It's not realistic. Its a game after all. I get deep puddles can form but it's rare. Same goes with drys on a wet track.

I won a REAL race with dry tires on a wet track and everyone else had wets on. So yes depending on track conditions slicks do fine compared to wets up to a point.

 

Let me frame this differently since some of you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

Are there conditions in which slicks on a wet track is horrible and "like ice". Yes
Do there exist Puddles that are deep enough to hydroplane a car into a spin. Yes

Now I could post 1,000's of real laps of cars on dry tires in the wet and cars going through puddles at high speeds with no issues but that would be boring and not the point since we know both happen.

The real question is how often do these conditions exist in real life?
If you watch racing you know that those extreme conditions are in the minority versus puddles and dry tires on a wet track being a manageable nuisance.

In my experience on real tracks in rain (Road America, Roebling Road, Road Atlanta,Moroso, VIR, Lime Rock) I have NEVER experienced puddles like the ones that form in 75% of races in AMS 2. Did the tracks have Puddles? Yes. Did they hydroplane the car? Yes some. But it was usually just a slight pull to one side.

Unfortunately in AMS 2 these outlying conditions happen 75% of the time (in my experience).
That is the crux of my issue.

• Outside of maybe Le Mans you should have time to pit for dry tires before it feels like ice 75%+ of the time like in real life.

• Deep Puddles that fling you off the road (even at low speed) shouldn't form 75% of the time at every single track it rains. (especially in 1-2 laps)

Reiza just tone it down. Make it so these instances only happen 10-25% of the time in wet races so it mirrors real life. Thats all i'm asking.