Automobilista 2 Custom Force Feedback - Overview & Recommendations

No,
it does not try to detect the peak slip-angle of the tire, it should not be required, we will see.
Instead it uses the actual slide information and then there is a curve for that.
I sometimes come close to thinking so, and actually almost added some code to estimate it runtime, but it's several hours of work, when Reiza could just simply put the number in some variable instead and it would be more stable. So I am not going that route for now.

 

carloscepinha
That could be another good way to do it.. the 'accurate' use of the tire scrub or Tire Tear (which?) to fill in the slide. Maybe even that ONLY the rear uses that, and the front uses 'lightness' (force reduction). So then you can know 100% which tires were causing that particaler response.
Hear Tearing? Well that is the REAR for sure!
FFB goes lighter... well that is ONLY the Front tires that could ever produce that.

 

@PeterV and @carloscepinha There IS a tear effect on the rear tires. Maybe you want front/rear tear to be much more different from each other?

 

@Karsten Hvidberg
Thanks for the updates,
I haven't tried 3.9.3 yet, but I noticed on 3.9.2 the FFB has become weaker so it requires higher values. That includes in game FFB and LFB. I never ran the FFB above 76, but the base wants higher than 80 now plus higher LFB. All cool, but the FFB is not as tight as before on long mid to high speed corners. I did not experience any clipping with higher values, but I feel a bit of emptiness on longer corners at higher speed.

Another thing I'd like to mention is the flat spot feel.
Starting from 3.9.1 (I think it was), the flat spot got much stronger. I was racing one of the Formula rides and this guy jumped in front of me causing me to lock up for a long distance so I knew my tires are cooked. I could feel the flat spot hammering the wheel, but the interesting part is, when you slightly turn the wheel on a long corner (again at higher speed); the flat spot feel would die completely so it only works on the straight line.
The flat spot feel is spot on, but I prefer it a lil lower so we don't have to reduce the FX much to lose other surface feedback.

I'm rooting to jump back on the original 3.9, but I will try 3.9.3 first for sure.

Thanks again,
Sean

 

Hey Sean,

It's fine to use whatever version you want to, however to me it's most valuablæe with comments like this, for improving on the most recent.
Sometimes the more recent will "veer off" and have to be brought back in by a few adjustmenets.
The flat spot is not showing up on cornering might be because both more and less downforce on a tire will actually make it felt less. I am not sure about that. Please notice if it's both on outer and inner tire it happens.

Thanks!

@PeterV

I just tried to change this:

(grip_fl (max 0 (- 1 (power (* 2.2 FL_tear0) 2.2))))
(grip_fr (max 0 (- 1 (power (* 2.2 FR_tear0) 2.2))))

to this:

(grip_fl (max 0 (- 1 (power (* 2.4 FL_tear0) 2.2))))
(grip_fr (max 0 (- 1 (power (* 2.4 FR_tear0) 2.2))))

for even lighter feeling on front slide, and it is better. Maybe increasing it even further will be even better, I only just tried to change the value once.
Feel free to enter the rabbit-hole that will never let go of you!

 

It's is exactly that. Front and rear grip communicated in different ways. Otherwise, you have no idea of knowing which is front and which is rear. I think this is the biggest difference I notice here.

In some ffbs can feel lightness from the rear (less countersteer pull) if the rear is "light" meaning when the FFB is communicating weight transfer, you're going in a downhill corner, even then, it's not like a 50% max force reduction, you just feel it a bit, like 10% or 20% maximum of your total force.

The G forces related with the direction of the car is traveling and pointing, meaning SOP effect forces are never 100% muted in any circumstance ever in any good FFB.

This is why I can drive in the rain, go over a puddle and I catch the car back because as soon as I feel the car is going 1 way and pointing other, I must correct the direction of the wheel to catch the car.
And I think in AC for example, when drifting there is a very quick vibration, that starts soft and gains a bit of force (again nothing to extreme).

It's interesting I detected 3 types of vibration there, ABS has a softer and slower. The rear grip loss, faster and more dynamic ofc. And kerb which there is just a canned effect and intensity it's up to you.

Something I noticed in default+ but not sure if this was related with front or rear, but in some kerbs there is a push or a pull, but on others, the ffb just turns light...

I g2g work soon hopefully tomorrow I'll test the 3.9.3

 

I'm not in front of the computer right now, but could you please tell me how much of the Flat Spot to reduce if there's a slider for it? Also, will adjusting that have any impact on any other road effects?
Thank you!

 

BTW I've also tested V23 of @Joaquim Pereira file, it is surprisingly "alive" regarding the counter steer part. The loss of grip lightness is less extreme, here I noticed in some corners I miss judge the front grip naturally since I'm not as used to this model ,but I've also managed a 1.33.400? Very similar lap times, very nice file overall.
I've used slightly diff settings for the DD1:
65 0 10 0 in game
DD1: Gain 70% filters: 0 Force Effect: 30% game forces: 100

Needs more testing but in like 30mins I've achieved quick laps, but I still struggle with some vagueness midcorner lightness sometimes but not as much: I drive more aggressively with this file by instinct, due to more countersteer I feel more in control.
I noticed 2 or 3 crazy moments where in other files I would have had massive spins and here it felt almost as "direct" as the "rack force file" where I had some crazy saves.

I've reduced some of the FX and "FEI" because on those 2 last corners going over kerbs exploiting the limit, the fx can hinder the feeling of the car and it's easy to get oversteer or just instability on the wheel from the big kerbs. With lower damping and effects it became easier to catch slides from such instability, with higher fx was more immersive but I would spin out without recover on those corners.

Just my observations of this Full body FFB file, who also deserves some praise.

This is why I used to be trying to stick with Defaults... going custom, it's a rabbit hole with no end ahahah

 

"rFuktor ? experimental 3.9.4"

* Changed so tear is on the front tires, scrub is on the rear tires. It's a test to see if it's better with that kind of variation, for knowing what's going on.
* Finetuned edge of grip adjustment further - Any feedback on "too early" or "too late" or "too litte"/"too much" on any car are very welcome! Trying to "nail it".
* Adjusted oversteer slightly sharper.

This one makes you feel more on edge, I think bc of the sensitivity to the rear end. I am not sure if that enables me to drive more on edge too, but I certainly feel it.
The edge of grip feel here very closely matches when you can visually see your steering has impact on the direction the car turns. But I think it should lose the sense of grip just a tiny bit earlier.

REMEMBER: Ingame "low force boost"/"LFB" is "compression" in these files. Start at 30% and go up and down a little to find how much strength you want on cornering vs driving straight.
High df cars: If too strong center at speed, lower gain until it is low enough & then adjust LFB further.

 

I just take the daniel kart and use the setup he write. With simracing on pc, I feel I spend lot of time to tweak the setting instead of playing. game graphic setting, nvdia setting, wheel base setting pithouse, pedal setting pithouse, bouton setting, calbration ingame, force feedback in game+clipping ajustment. That a lot!!

 

100%, I'm over it. What I did was creating an Excel Spreadsheet for every car I drive with the setup for those cars and the tracks that I'm familiar with (the list is growing). I always update my data base with new findings and micro adjustments in the car setup that helps me to improve hot laps.
With having that data base; you just open the file for that specific car, set it up for the track you're about to hit and go! I've also included the FFB setting for each car so I don't have to pull over and make adjustments when I'm on the track. You know how each car and class feels different.
I probably spent the first year of sim racing just on understanding the hardware and making adjustments. It was fun, but I'm so over it. I also never jump from a title to another. I only race on AMS2 and have deleted everything else except Dirt Rally 2, American/Euro Truck Simulator.

Racing has never been more fun after all that preparation, but I always keep an eye on the custom FFB here. W/o it, AMS2 would be dead for me and many others long time ago.

 

Hey Sean,

I'm away from comp as well now, but if I remember correctly, the flat spot effect is actually disabled, so what you feel is the load difference on the tire, coming through other calculations, so it's not a "canned" effect. It can likely be "hidden" quite easily, but I have to take a look at it.

 

Thanks Karsten,
I experienced that flat spot vibration a couple times and it mostly happens when the tires are ice cold and you lock up. It's actually very realistic specially on Formula. I remember it got so bad that I could hear it in the base after lap 8 or so. It could be the high downforce effect like you mentioned earlier.
Not a big deal at all. Just wanted to share my experience

 

@PeterV

I now see why you would not feel the grip loss. My experiment has not been successful across cars, so that's why.
I will change to another method.
Dont waste your time adjusting those values I posted about earlier.

 

What do you mean by "tear effect"? any sort of vibration?

I am 99% thinking this is how I feel so well in AC. In AC I never felt the "FFB die" or go close to like 5% due to lack of grip in both front and rear.

I'm not saying that what is done here is "wrong" but it feels like it's "too much" of a dropoff sometimes. In "Fullffb" for example I feel less that huge drop off from the fronts, sometimes I'll go into a corner a bit too hot. This is actually realistic since it's easy to get too confident over the fronts, and it's quite common IRL.
Also it does keep some more of that counter steer feeling all the time near the center, and even if in extreme grip loss from the rear it goes light, but every single time I have cold tires and push throttle hard from neutral into first aggressively (like trying to do a burnout) there is vibration on the FFB.

In a corner, making these tires slide around as soon as you hear screeching you feel vibration with matching intensity. Doesn't need to be "kerb" power vibration or anything too crazy, but I'm 100% sure it's there. If my rears aren't gripped I'm always 100% sure of it, there is no "middle ground".

Some people actually used to criticize AC a lot back then, saying it felt too much like an "on/off" and didn't feel as progressive as rFactor2 for example, that felt more progressive and "rubbery".

Not only you had vibration, but the counter steer strength I believe it didn't drop off that quickly from rear grip loss. I think at the limit of grip or slightly past the limit, there was a moment where the counter steer forces were quite high. I remember getting hurt from spinning there. With high FFB it was really scary to just have a spin, and to drift I would have to use "normal human" forces in order to not get overpowered by the FFB.
I could be sliding and have quite some decent forces on the wheel.

Some would even say AC ffb felt too busy, too noisy, robotic or wtv even with fx off, but in reality, you had everything to drive quickly there and maybe you could have even "too much" of everything or every force... but then I would use some damper and things would smooth out.

I would have to go back to back in order to be really accurate and detailed. And I'm also "gaming" AMS2 to it's limit, meaning I'm fighting for WR laptimes and trying to replicate the same lap over and over the same way I did there, but now I would need to do this in a similar extreme manner in other titles in order to get into the finer comparison details.

I must say "rack force" felt surprisingly close to AC, but it was a bit "too lose" and many small things were missing. But I was able to have an insane car control with that file to save crazy spins, but the wheel felt it moved "too freely" and lacked some weight from the car, (yaw maybe?) or lacked some downforce idk... it was so easy to turn it like crazy that I had 1h with it and couldn't really come close to my fastest laps. I was always pushing too hard over the limit since there wasn't much feel for the limit there, but I think I never even crashed since I could always catch the car insanely fast and direct in moments that seemed impossible with other ffb.

@Karsten Hvidberg I just noticed something on 3.9.4 on some heavy corner lockups, looking at the FFB telemetry on very cold tires on GT4 Spielberg since I've tested in the past, during qualli I had ffb telemetry on, even if the FFB is quite strong and using 60% 80% even clipping sometimes on 50 50 0 0 settings, during front lockup or extreme low grip, ffb goes down to the 20% bar.
Meaning , during frontal grip loss, you don't lose part of the ffb, you lose like 80% or almost literally 80% of the ffb signal during total front grip loss, to me that is quite extreme.
IDK how the formulas work inside if this is how it is supposed to be.
I wonder if this extreme loss doesn't detract from other forces?

I'm also not sure if there is anything about the rear... so the FFB going light into the 20% and not knowing much of the rear other than waiting for countersteer, cost me a win and led me to 3 spins in a race. 2 of them in a row straight away, I just had no consistency in a low temp track.
This also begs me another question, after some TimeTrial testing, should I probably test on different track conditions?
Because sometimes in less than ideal temps, some of these things get exposed and I notice a huge lack of ability to feel things like before in ideal temps and conditions. In low grip is where car control and consistency matters the most, and being able to lap close to our Personal Best in either cold tires or overheated tires (not to mention rain) is the true test of skill.
I remember first time in some random open AC server for newbies w GTs at Spa, random temps and when the track was frying hot and tires would get cooked in 1 or 2 loockups, the most skilled and impressive drivers were the ones who kept fast laptimes and kept the tires in check.

I actually had some league races here in AMS2 in a somewhat realistic setting, Brasilian tracks, P3 endurance cars. Temps were really hot most of the time and I dealt with it. Eventually I couldn't go due to work and I had a vacation my last P3 race at Campo Grande was a disaster. Every race I had new Default+ settings... I kept trying to feel the limit but in my failed race I had exactly this same problem, rear spins out no warning no correction feel I just kept spinning out without feeling anything meaningful, or maybe what I felt was ffb going close to 0% which means feeling literally nothing lol.

 

That's exactly why I'm doing this. To give people with different bases a great experience quickly and easily. No endless adjustments, no endless attempts where they end up at the same level two years later. A lot of people want to take a simulation and have fun without making a science out of it first. Or think of new players who have no idea about the settings of Ams2 or the settings with FFB. This will give Reiza new players and the team will get more attention, at least that's what I hope

 

I have tried awesome ffb files but today I tried the default+ version and after a view rounds on track I improved my time in the MB GT3 with one massive second because I had less forces and other distractions on my wheel

 

For me, the exact opposite is true. I can always rank in the top ten with a custom file. With the defaults, it's impossible for me. But that's all irrelevant and very dependent on people's personal preferences. They have to embrace it, whether it's defaults or customs. If they prefer defaults, then stick with them; if they prefer customs, then stick with them.

 

What I noticed is if you "drive enough", with practice and memorization, you can rank top10 regardless. It gets to a point where even with "barely" having any FFB is enough.

I've also tried your file and liked it... initially I really liked that I got up close to the best pace with zero effort from me to find settings: meaning just put your settings and go.

But then I noticed those weird "lightness" that is common across all ffbs in AMS2 and during tense moments when I'm pushing on track fighting for positions, sometimes I don't notice the grip is that much lower, and I just spin.

Sometimes I'm turning in, I think I'm getting understeer because it's a bit lighter but I'm holding that steering waiting for the tires to bit due to speed loss + scrubbing and instead the rear end spins out and the force to correct only appears way after I'm spinning already. (like 0,5 second later lol)

I've seen fast guys pull it off during races, or cold track lower grip but due to that being so alien to me in the sense that I'm more used to the AC style of gyro and correction dealing with the rear, and snappier feel that is closely resembled by "rack force".

With that file it feels that I need a planted rear and I drive by feeling the fronts if they bite or not. And then I push the car out. It's on the smoother side but if I want a planted front and a snappy oversteer tail happy rear of the car it becomes difficult to feel and sometimes just by turning into a corner I make the rear end snap out of grip with literally no warning.
I can carry too much speed, misjudge, the fronts aren't biting I know, but now what I need to now is the countersteer needed, and in some files I get more info on that countersteer to prevent spins and crashes.

 

In the early days of FFB - like the Logitech G25 arrival - it was often much better to NOT use the FFB at all and you would lap faster!! FFB adds in 'bumps' and wheel kicks, that disturb 'smooth' unabated steering, and you can learn the Sim/car totally fine with ZERO FFB information.
So back then FFB was of more use just for immersion - and detriment! Just throw in some "Wheel Centering" to give you the car's "Self Centering" aspect, and all is fine. LOL

These days the FFB wheels are massively better and far more accurate and 'correct' in their FFB.... though it could still very well be that ZERO FFB can give optimal lap times! It is just something you LEARN.... via using other cues from the game/sim, and they are totally adequate on their own.