Physics discussion thread

I don't know, Joachim, whether it has to do with physics or something else. It would all be just a guess. But because in other cars this feeling isn't there, or it's very reduced with the same camera movements, my guess is more likely to be tire physics. The fact is, this feeling is very strong in GT3, too strong for my and many other users. But as I said, I don't know.

 

I didn’t really want to get into this , i will likely get attacked, but there isnt an issue with Floaty Tire or Physics , and even default set ups which is really down to user preference and if making changes to the setup give you a desired result then things are working as they should.
one person’s easier set up is another persons “this thing won’t turn “ set up.

It just a perception, and like anything in life , perception is based of what information you have .
A lot of People including various sims over the years have come to the philosophy that FFB is ment to be realistic steering forces, despite that not being described in the phrase at all .
I’ve always been of the mind that it simply means Motorised feedback of information, it a different philosophy.
it doesn’t matter what the output device is , its job is to give you information, and in sims we mostly use steering wheels, which irl are very benign and don’t feel you much at all.

The issue many sims have including Ams2 is a tendency to model FFB on the post effects on steering rack , By that i mean , the response of the rack taking into account the dynamic load after the suspension has reacted. depending on what each sim has decided is to be the fulcrum point in the steering system, it might be one point or more too , Which isn’t wrong and is a mathematical and modeling methodology that one could expect when trying to simulate steering systems.

You will always feel above the track because between you in the seat and the track is a bunch of moving parts designed to absorb load, so it’s often relying on yaw to tell you how far your leaning on the grip . Yaw is an inherently delayed effect, as it takes time to adjust to the weight through the suspension.

The part that is most directly in contact with the track and the steering rack is the tire .
If you make the tire the primary load signal it gives a constant ( but still dynamic) connection to the track .

Using the grip , scrub and tyre deformation to communicate the load on the front axle not only gives a variable range of load in real time , it also helps feel the difference set up changes have on the tire load in relation to the track and steering angle .

This is the method i have always tried to use even back in PC2 and luckily we have that option in Ams2 ( custom) .

Other sims don’t and your stuck with whatever interpretation they implemented and for some that’s fine for others it’s a turn off and they may not use what’s otherwise a really good product.

In Ams2 i don’t feel any floatyness , only differences in bite and sharpness of different tyres across many different cars , and then combined with immersive effects like suspension behaviour and track surfaces applied in unison, but not necessarily combined signal and output with tire feel, I can drive with my own sense of reality, even if it’s not representative of realistic steering wheel feel, it is realistic information….

 

Then you can be happy if you don't feel it. I clearly feel this "boat feeling," and so do many others. I know it can be masked with the FFB (which I did), but only up to a certain point. But it's only masked, not solved, because the underlying problem still exists. On some cars, it's less noticeable or not noticeable at all; on others, it's extreme (e.g., the GT3). Since it's a simulation, many factors can influence it. I don't try to recreate a simulation 1:1 with reality because it will fail. But I try to make it as close to reality as possible. But when I get this "boat feeling," it takes away the reality and the immersion, and so do many users. This is just a user exchange in this physics thread, and maybe it helps Reiza, and maybe it doesn't. It's not meant as an attack; for me, AMS2 remains my preferred simulation for many different reasons.

 

To add to the 'floaty' topic I have never experienced it in AMS2, and it was a long time before I even knew what people were talking about until I went back to AC and couldn't seem to dial in good FFB settings. The only suggestion I can make on this topic is tweaking the camera behaviour settings and FFB.

That said, are there any cars in particular that convey the 'floatiness' best? I've test-driven every single GT3 of both gens, and not experienced it. I also regularly drive V8 Super, Group A, and the McLaren MP4/6 (which feels unbelievably planted to the ground, much better than the one I found in RF2)

 

That's how it is. If you drive a different sim (not LMU, there are also problems with GT3) and then switch to Ams2, it will become obvious. I've always felt it, and I wonder why Reiza doesn't do anything about it because it's obvious and bothers a lot of people. As you've already noticed, it's different with other cars that sit firmly on the road and have absolutely no boat feel. I suspect it's not easy to correct, or Reiza sees it completely differently. For newcomers, it's therefore easy to judge Ams2. 90% of people drive GT3 first, or influencers test GT3. Too bad, for the rest of this fantastic simulation

 

At least in my experience I think other popular sims do not feel like I'm driving at GT3 or at least how I image them to drive. Take a look at this recent IMSA Road America footage. Take a close look at the BMW beginning fromt 4:30 to the Carousel.

Or watch the Lambo GT3 in front here from 15:10

Or watch Gounons lap on Mount Panoroma.

I won't argue against anyone saying the game feels floaty to them at this point. If that's what you feel, that's alright. I just can't feel or see it when I'm driving. I've stated before cars like M4 GT3 in LMU and AMS2 feel pretty much identical to me in the current state of both games. But to me AMS2s driving feels more what I expect GT3s to drive like. These cars will rotate on throttle when being pushed and allow slip. Drivers are often sig-sawing at the wheel to get the rotation and getting them back straigth. High Curbs unsettle the car and has to be countered into your steering. The key point to me, the slip has to be reactable and controllable. And this is where I prefer AMS2 over other sims, since the cars don't suddenly snap or kill you on slip, but allows you to control it. And with each patch since 1.6 launch they refined it more and more that you now much more turn in by braking and the front wheels instead of abusing throttle rotation on the rear, and I'm sure next updates will continue doing so as long as we get Endruance updates

I get that some people like a more understeery racing and having to keep the car under the limit, especially since it's easier to get into for newcomers. But I just don't think it feels like GT3 racing should.

For comparison here's LMU where the Corvette just snapped at barely any input, gave me no feedback that I lost grip somehow and the car didn't react to any countersteering at all.

 

@Danielkart

What you describe as “floatiness” or a “boat-like feeling” is, to me, simply the tyres walking. I think it’s fantastic that AMS 2 allows you to sense this, and that its tyre model actually simulates it.

Have you ever taken your own car into a corner so quickly that you thought the tyre might come off the rim? In that moment you realise you may have pushed too hard, and the tyres shift from a faint whisper to a squeal.

Surprisingly, though, there’s still plenty of grip until the noise turns into a full-on screech. That’s when the traction finally gives way. I’ve experienced this in three utterly ordinary road cars with very different tyres, yet I believe the behaviour translates remarkably well to racing scenarios.

I can only describe it in fairly simple, almost childlike terms, but for me this is exactly what AMS 2 conveys: the flex and movement of the tyre’s sidewall.

For you – and for many others – this sensation might feel wrong. But I suspect just as many people enjoy it; they simply don’t say so.

On the subject of YouTubers:
A video that only hands out praise is never going to make much of a splash. But if it highlights a hotly debated issue from the forum, Steam, Reddit, or elsewhere, then of course it will grab far more attention.

I'm very much with Kaku and Ace on this subject.

That’s just my take, though. Perhaps I’m completely mistaken and you’re right after all. Even so, I personally really value this sense of tyre behaviour and sincerely hope it remains in the sim.

 

Yes, of course, everyone has different ideas and different feelings. For me personally, there's something wrong with the GT3 cars, just like in LMU. That's just my opinion and doesn't necessarily coincide with others. It doesn't bother me, because there are plenty of other cars I can have a lot of fun with. Or even other simulations where I don't get that feeling about GT3. Anyway, to each his own

 

Since this is a physics thread, it helps if we stay focused on physics and comparisons with reality. Personal, subjective, opinions are relevant for game play purposes, or popularity/sales purposes, but even then we should try to ground whatever we are saying in some form of facts or evidence. @Ace did that nicely. It would be great if there was a similar approach taken on the "floaty boat" side so everyone could understand what is being referred to/what is the issue with the game. Repeatedly claiming something is broken or bad doesn't help move the issue forward, or, even prove that there is an issue.

One thing I remind everyone before drawing conclusions is to be sure you have ALL aids turned off (generic ones in the UI and car specific-ones in the set-up screen) when you test vehicles for physics issues. I have driven the GT3's with TC and ABS at zero and they are floatier than the GTEs and less floaty than the GT4's, which is exactly as it should be. I have driven every other series in the game and cannot for the life of me explain how the GT3's are worse than any other series. They all feel planted and relatively easy to drive (as it should be), especially compared to older or more powerful series that often also have inferior tires.

So, let's try to understand what is different about the GT3s specifically because, if true, you are correct that a bad impression will be left due to many people driving them first or most as they do in other sims. It's not just to each his own if such important claims are repeated here (and in other threads, too).

 

So I was under the impression that the early 1.6 updates finally had this floatiness that others are mentioning, dialled out. Has there been physics changes that have re-introduced it if it is back? Or for some people did it never go away?

 

Yes, this is a physics thread, and I emphasized that for me, it's more of a physical problem. No, I have no evidence or facts. But there's just as little evidence or facts that this isn't the case. It's not just my opinion; it's a widely held opinion and observation shared by many other users. For this reason, perhaps this "phenomenon" should be investigated further. I can't tell you what causes this floating sensation, but for me, it's definitely there with the GT3. That's why it's impossible to provide evidence or facts here, neither from people who feel it nor from people who don't.

 

Since the term 'floatiness' has shown to mean different things to different people:

• If it's the sense of "neutral steer" that steelreserv described, you can try a well-balanced car such as the Formula Trainer Advanced, the Sprint Race, or the Porsche Cup
• If it's the sense of tire sidewall flex (maybe more of a 'mushy' than 'floaty' feel), try something like the Formula V12 class or the GT Classics Porsche 911 RSR
• If it's the camera settings, try a car where you sit deep inside the chassis far away from the windshield, such as Stock Car 2020
• If it's how the default setups seem very willing to induce slip angle and "drift to go faster", try the ProCar M1
• If it's how the tire scrub sound is too noisy/annoying and it sounds like the car is sliding all the time, try the Trucks (that was a joke, but there are probably some examples of this as well)

For a better chance to feel the floatiness, it can also help to come from a sim with a fundamentally different approach to how the devs want their simulated cars to feel on the edge of grip loss, such as driving in Assetto Corsa or RaceRoom for many hours, then afterwards switch briefly to a similar car in AMS2.

I personally don't mind AMS2 having these issues, but I realize that it's a major thorn in the side for many and that it is a barrier that prevents people from choosing AMS2 over other sims. I'm happy to see that there have been many minor improvements since back when the floatiness was at its worst (around v1.3 in my view), but I also sympathize with the frustration of those who grow tired of this problem not being improved soon enough.

 

I'm not surprised that some have a sense of floaty-ness in simulation in general. A major difference from reality being the lack of G-forces. Within the context of Simulation, I don't share the view that GT3 cars in AMS2 are particularly "floaty". There are streamers who also race professionally and have shared just how much the real cars can slide in real life. They sometimes speak to Simulation being much less forgiving than reality in that way.

 

Why should the lack of G-forces in simulations create a floating feeling? Moreover, it's not the case in other simulations like AC/ACC/Raceroom/Iracing either. A fixed and rigid connection in a rig should have the opposite effect. I also get this floating feeling (in every simulation, by the way) when I drive with motion and the screen moves with it. As soon as the screen is fixed and decoupled, this feeling disappears. It's exactly the same in Ams2 with GT3, but unfortunately in every situation.

 

To me, the main problem with GT3's and such is still that how much it's possible to push the car, have rotation, power out of corners with throttle. It's not particulary hard even and better you are, the more obvious it usually becomes, especially with a good setup.

It's usually the IRL drivers, those sim drivers who have more IRL and high skilled sim racers that point out these things more instead of just saying "it's slidey or floaty, pivots weird etc.". Things like how you don't really need to coast much in corners, just go for throttle earlier, you have rotation and no need to wait for car to settle first (Baldwin for example pointed this). There are plenty of people who enjoy AMS2, who also have pointed these things out often (Dicra is one who comes to mind).

This might a decent way to try to show the difference on those who might not notice it themselves. Here we have equally skilled esport level drivers (GO Setup drivers) driving the same car on different sims with setup tailored for the same track. Then last is a IRL onboard, which unfortunately is not the greatest of angles for comparison, but it's something at least.

The point is not to say other sims are better, just how different it looks just visually when extracting the best lap times in different sims, look for the rotation and throttle/neutral steering kind of behavior. Unfortunately in my eyes at least, , AMS2 doesn't doesn't look that favorably on this level.

AMS2

LMU:

iRacing:

IRL

Fortunately this definitely isn't the case with all classes in AMS2.

ps. on a good setup on AMS2, the rear is more planted, easier to catch and regains grip better, so it's just often easier to drive and extract time.

 

This is the crux of the debate for me. I can fully understand that the visuals and FFB of Sim A appeals more to person X than the same in Sim B. What I do not understand is what is the difference in the GT3s in AMS 2 versus any other (reasonably comparable) series in AMS 2?

Many respondents here say there is nothing different about the GT3s, but many swear there is something fundamentally different and flawed with that single series (and that this is bolstered by some general agreement out in the broader user community). Something doesn't add up and discussing the general impressions or preferences of various sims is not helpful to get closer to any physics-related conclusions.

I will watch the videos above next, but @GFoyle, can you explain how the GT3s in these examples differ from GT4s or GTEs? Or has no one done that similar comparison ACROSS sims, or no one has done a comparison WITHIN a sim of those classes (where they exist)?

 

In reply to these videos (that are advertisements of sorts, designed to impress, right??), I am watching one at a time and commenting immediately after each:

AMS 2:

• Ridiculously unrealistic FOV/seat position, as if I am sitting in the middle of the hood/bonnet while driving
• I may be perceptually impaired, but I get zero sense of any floatiness from this video--it looks quite plausible to me

LMU:

• Uses a much closer to realistic FOV/seat position, but still not quite correct
• Car response seems dull and slow, with lots of understeer (not an optimal race setup), which to me could be described as floating or sliding across the surface...though I think it is really just understeer

iRacing:

• Even closer to realistic FOV/seat position
• Handling looks plausible and quite frankly almost identical to AMS 2

The three videos are using completely different FOV and horizon lock settings so are effectively useless for comparison purposes IMO. Of course, we also have zero ability to determine any FFB sensations, good or bad, from a video.

Real life:

• Not a driver-view perspective, so....not sure how this can be used?
• Sawing at the wheel in corners, which almost every real racer does regularly, is something I need to do in AMS 2 more than in any other sim (see also the second video from @Ace's post above for that)

I know you are trying to be helpful and contribute, but these videos provide an example of how videos are almost never definitive, or even useful, to diagnose physics issues.

I would like to explore your statement about the cornering handling in AMS 2 GT3s. That you can rotate the car through a corner and get on the throttle very early. Is this with all aids off and TC=0?

And, we do all realize that the holy grail of race car set-up is to achieve exactly what you have described--a car that can be rotated by the driver/throttle in a controlled manner through a corner, with the earliest possible exit acceleration? Teams all spend as much time and money as they can (or are allowed) to get to this goal. Are you saying the setups in AMS 2 are too good?

 

I think the "advertisement on how good the setup up is and what it's it potential" are good examples in the sense that it shows how more clearly on how you can push it and what it looks like when you do. There were probably some better examples of AMS2 laps where this would be maybe even more clear, but I wanted to try same car, same track examples for other sims too from same guys. The TC on that video was on 2 (at least it's on the setup that the video is advertising) and actually often the GO Setups have quite a bit of TC, 4-6 is very common on the LMDh. You still have rotation, but it's also very forgiving even though you might be leaving a bit of potential on the table (I think it's also to protect overheating the tires).

As for the FOV, to me it looks like middle screen of a 3 screen setup with maybe 27" screens, the actual fov doesn't seem that weird (especially if you try to use close to what the FOV calculators would give). I do agree that it looks a bit weird in AMS2 video compared to the 2 others. I wish the wheel would be more visible especially, but I at least get an idea of what where the car is facing, where it's going and there is the throttle and brake inputs.

I can't get same lap times, but it's not that hard to stay in the window where you have neutral steering style of behavior and be faster as a result (Í think the "arcade" often comes to mind when it's very easy to get to that kind of behavior where IRL, to get it seems to be more difficult).

Of course it's something you would aim as it makes you faster, to get to the throttle as early as possible and stil haver the rotation to make it is the target, I'm just saying it feels it's slightly too earlier and too easy to get there and stay there. Like I have wrote in some of my earlier posts, it feels like there is certain plateu like optimal grip area before the snap happens.

On the GT3's especially, the understeer (if any) happens mainly on corner entry (the main improvement in 1.6 revisions IMO), but after that, on slow to medium speed corners, you seem to have more than enough rotation with ease (even if you change the setup to have less mechanical grip, it doesn't want to get understeery especially on corner entry in those corners). On higher speed corners it's better, more balanced with how you can get understeer (and oversteer) in different phases of a corner, especially with balanced setup.

I like many of the Formula cars often a lot. Lower center of gravity, more aero, more stiff, less suspension travel, engine... you can't abuse the on throttle rotation very easily because the window where you have nice rotation is a lot tighter (I have played enough with the setups to know it's not just bad setup), usually you get wheelspin on both rear tires, rear squirming for traction or it just oversteers and snaps on you really quickly (very much like it seems to be IRL). On GT3 and the like (LMDh included), you have this nice balanced rotation on slow to medium corners without wheelspin to speak off. I guess that inside rear being nicely sticky and fronts having good grip for rotation and wide slip angle with the outside rear pushing you, is what gives many that "central pivot point" feel.

Now, I actually like driving the GT3's on AMS2, but I do think some of the critique is legit, even though I find it enjoyable. I love being able to play with the slip angle and throttle and I like cars that actually rotate well, so it's not a problem for me personally.

ps. You were exactly right with you observations on the LMU video, it's exactly like that, fighting with understeer constantly and I hate that (those videos are with "esport" setups that definitely are not made intentionally understeery). On throttle the car doesn't want to rotate much at all (and if it does, it can oversteer and snap on you easy) and whe accelerating, it feels like the rears are dead. I find it really dull to drive currently (prototypes are more fun there though). One of the strenghts of LMU (and rF2) over AMS2 is how dynamic the grip evolution feels during a race stint especially, how the wear really impacts you and forces you to adjust all the time, how your driving impacts the wear rate etc.)

 

I honestly don't think it's just GT3, it's more like GT4, GT3, LMP2, LMDh all can have similar traits, etc. GT3 is probably just more cabable over GT4's, so it's more obvious and I think the higher aero nature on the GTE, LMP2, LMDh dimishes it. This week I did some driving on VIR with the LMDh (BMW) and the setup I used was just ridicilous how easy it was to get that neutral steering and how safe it felt. It was fun though.

 

In AMS2, this aspect could be further refined, as vehicles tend to become unsettled in an overly harsh manner. Minor surface irregularities should also influence the dynamics, as tire load and grip naturally fluctuate with such inputs. While AMS2 models larger bumps effectively, it appears to lack precision in capturing the subtler effects of smaller undulations.

@Marc Collins
Unfortunately, both visuals and FFB play an important role in the perception of physics behavior (planted, floating, etc.). AMS2, however, has a tendency to bounce a lot (a smoother but less damped rendering/physics), whereas other sims deliver a harsher rendering/physics (as shown in the examples above). I relate better to this harsh car feeling. That alone can produce a floating effect for many people.

For example, if we collide with a wall (never happened to me ), the car tends to jump into the air (also a physics issue) and oscillate like an attenuating sinusoidal wave. A real car suspension absorbs those oscillations much more quickly.

The legacy head movement is better in many ways (it gives that harsher feeling), but try doing Sebring with it…

Triples 27", 54cm from screen, 58º