What do you think is the most significant reason AMS2 userbase is so small?

This is probably the only one that will be extremely difficult to implement and probably coming if possible only in a distant future.

 

I think a couple of reasons mostly. One is the state of the game at launch. I.e. not a lot of the big name tracks. The unpolished diving mechanics from back then. Now the game drives superb but it took a while to get here. A lot of folks who tried the game at launch gave up on it and have not come back.

Secondly I think it's due to other big name Sims. I have pretty much all of them and I find it quite hard to find the time to play them all. Basically once you decide and pick one title you are going to stick to it, get good at it and play it exclusively, for the most part. I rarely play the other Sims now as my pick is AMS2.

 

Yeah, basically the DS on ams2 is the exact same as the PC2 DS, i really do hope that it will get a serious overhaul at some stage.

Also a better replay system would be very welcome, especially for league admins as well, when you need to look at an incident, you cant click on the timeline or select a certain lap, add the terrible sound when fast forwarding to it, and a unresponsive UI, and watching replays/incidents become a rather unpleasant experience.

I think i have seen mentioned somewhere in the past that the system does not support clicking on a timeline because of the livetrack system, but if thats the case, then its a huge miss in the engine imho.

 

I'm coming from this completely from an outsider perspective as I have only been sim racing for two weeks.
I got ACC but as I use VR exclusively I find that too blurry so I picked up AMS2 as I heard that was good for.VR. it is and it works great.
However, from my limited experience, the elements that let down the game for me are:
1) the lack of significant penalties for causing crashes or deliberately ramming/punting other drivers. The vast majority of races I have been in have been carnage on the first lap and with aome idiots seemingly deliberately pushing othera off. This is far from an enjoyable or emersive experience and surely puts people off returning for more of the same. The devs really need to introduce a proper system to address this.
2) Lack of progression. There needs to be something to aim at, in single and multiplayer. Rankings, leagues/seasons/trophies/titles
3)Some of the car classes are a bit thin on content. GT3 especially.

 

the issue here is that basically all admins disable or turn damage down to a minimum.

now why is that? cuz the damage model is very funky and unpredictable. sometimes u hit someone at quite a speed difference and get no to little damage while sometimes u have a tiny bump and half of your car is broken. also the way the damage is being translated (where u hit something) seems very hitbox like, and can be very unpredictable and non really logic at times. (tested offline against AI)

i think the devs said they would work on the damage model but the way it is currently i can totally understand why its mostly off in online lobbies

add the broken netcode/lagcompensation where i sometimes hit cars that are 1sec away from me, and u can understand how frustrating it would be for everyone involved, if their car is damaged after such stuff

 

There are no penalties because the multiplayer servers are hosted by individuals (people like you and me). There is no central system that controls/governs race penalties (ala iRacing). Basically when you play online, you are playing on open lobbies which are basically the wild wild west of online racing where there are no rules. It's basically a **** show. Nothing Reiza can do about it, since the servers are hosted by anyone who wants to and has the technical know how.

If you want clean organized racing, then either play with a group of friends or join a league. That is your best bet. No amount of licensing points/levels will mean anything if the races aren't centrally managed. Building such a centrally managed infrastructure is a HUGE effort. Even then it will never be perfect, just look at the penalty system of iRacing, if you get hit through no fault of your own you still end up with x penalty points. Not to mention the cost of running said infrastructure.

 

Until they sort out multiplayer this game will always have a low player base. Look at all the big you tubers and twitch streamers none of them touch AMS2. With exception of gamermuscle who streams it on you tube once in a blue moon. All the other big streamers don’t go near it. Sim racing 604 bigs it up, but he doesn’t stream.
Question is why don’t they?
Well if you qualify, there’s no guarantee you will access the next session and get on the starting grid. Many times the server host will get kicked from their own server moving from one session to the next. It’s prone to crashing and if you have anyone from outside your own country, the ping goes bonkers and the cars on track in front of you start drifting, levitating off the track and you can’t trust or predict where they will be. If you add pit stops with mandatory tyre change, there’s no guarantee your pit crew will follow your pit strategy and give you new tyres. Not very attractive for streamers who want to entertain and race with their community. Plus there’s a small player base so not much chance of them having decent grids to entertain their viewers.
For all these reasons the streamers don’t touch it, if streamers don’t touch it, then their viewers won’t touch it. You tubers are very influential and a resource not used by Reiza.
If some of their viewers do take a chance and buy it because it’s on sale, they go to multiplayer lobbies where they are met with a ton of private lobbies they can’t access or minimal players in public lobbies, where ams2 is now infamous for project cars 2 style lobbies of death.
GT3 cars in this sim have awful bop issues especially at altitude and there’s only four cars to choose from. Not fun for multiplayer at all and these tend to be the most popular cars to race online.
Reading the devs notes about their plans for multiplayer, I’d say this game will only ever have a small passionate group of hotlappers and potentially if they sort the predictable and procedural AI out and they stop racing in unrealistic packs, they might attract some AI racers too.
I’d love for this game to be popular, but it’s very niche and it’s only attracted the hot lappers and some AI racers who enjoy immersion with amazing weather, beautiful graphics and recreating past events. That’s a very small niche of players in a small niche genre of pc gaming and I don’t see this ever changing unless they sort out multiplayer, which again unfortunately I don’t see happening.
I would love to be proven wrong on this, because I do truly love this sim, but it also frustrates the crap out of me.

 

Perfect. However you will get heat here for stating it.

Edit: Just to make it clear: Reiza staff are fine gentleman and take every feedback into account. I'm talking about non-staff users.

 

Reiza fan boys can disagree all they want, facts and I don’t care about their feelings haha
I’m a big fan of Reiza and I want this sim to be big!
I still chuckle from the heat we got about sticky diff and how everyone who criticised it along with the see saw steering wheel effects was a moron and didn’t understand how cars drive.
Then when Reiza fixed it and proudly announced the awful sticky diff issue and see saw steering wheel issue had been resolved with V1.3, all the Reiza Fan boys who denied that well known issue who said it was perfect and amazing the way it was went very silent.
Absolute crickets from them when you questioned them about why the fix came in from Reiza for the issue that they the fan boys stated didn’t exist but was widely recognised by the whole sim racing community and also Reiza #awkward

 

I would think Reiza already knows they are late to the party since a while
Pretty sure most hotlappers and guys who like AMS2 drving experience would also love better MP and liking something won't exclude criticizing it or pointing out what should be improved.
I'd think very few users of AMS2 today would vote for keeping MP the way it is no matter how they consume their products

 

I was trying to post AMS2 videos on a regular basis in my Youtube channel until 2 weeks ago, at which point I was so frustrated about the controller issues that I decided to take another break from the game. There's also some issues with AI, constant changes to car handling, constantly having to reset setups, all of those things discourage me from playing the game. Of all the games I post in my Youtube channel AMS2 is the one that gets most views, but at the moment I don't see much reason to keep playing a game that's causing me so much frustration when there's other more fun games out there. Hopefully AMS2 will get to a more stable state sometime soon.

 

I don’t think it’s fair to call other sims average / for everyone games.
The reason the other sims bring in more viewers, is because those sims provide what the majority of sim racers want ( online, enjoyable AI, progression systems on and offline, decent bop, more variety in popular car classes etc ) and have a larger and more committed player and fan base because of that. There are some big clue’s above as to why those most viewed and played sims attract views and new players and why AMS2 can’t compete with them.
If AMS2 provided a platform for streamers to race with their community online and it was reliable and they could trust it to be a smooth and seamless experience, I have no doubt more of them would use it.
You tubers are free advertising and also very influential. Other than Mike from sim racing 604, no one big on you tube is regularly using or even talking about AMS2 and until that changes, AMS2 will have a low player base.
If AMS2 did manage to be popular with streamers and viewers, would that then make it an average for everyone sim? I’m curious to know if success and a wider appeal and audience equals average for everyone game status?

 

He's got over 40k subscribers and I hope his channel continues to grow! He's gonna love the upcoming DLC...

 

And prior to the above video that he launched a few hours ago, his last AMS2 video was………….. One and a half months ago and prior to that video, a further two months ago!
I have no doubt that when V1.4 gets released it will be just like V1.3, lots of people talking and typing about it, you tubers will be talking and making videos about it and there will be a great buzz again.
That buzz builds momentum, but unless the issues and concerns myself and others have raised are at least vastly improved and show real promise, just like what happened with V1.3, within a month of the latest build releasing, you tubers and curious sim racers will again lose interest in the game and move on.
Once you cut through the excitement of new toys and new build, there’s simply nothing to do, nothing to aim for or achieve, no one to compete with, no motivation or hook to keep you coming back, nothing to keep you playing and improving your craft and the predictable, procedural and pack racing AI gets very boring very quickly.
You tubers will then stop playing and talking about it and go back to the sims that bring the views and slowly but surely no one will be playing or talking about AMS2 again and this debate will undoubtedly cycle on until 2023.

 

Better netcode and better dedi tools, right now multiplayer doesn't work well as AMS1 and this is the main cause IMO (of course).

We were used to have a lot of flexibility and customization paired with stability and working netcode, missing all the above is very difficult to have some traction, specially because AMS1 was very niche title and who moved from it to AMS2 (without being plagued by the "it is PC2 engine so it is shiFt" prejudice) was expecting at least the same base features wise which is clearly missing.

 

When I join, I don't know most of the tracks. If you are a beginner it is a bit intimidating. Some tracks are very specific to some car series and mix-matching all cars and tracks would be a nightmare challenge to drive. I'm not interesting in driving the legendary F1 2004 in Nordschleife.

Some AMS cars (and even some tracks) are "curiosities" and "one off" but it's lacking a lot of very famous motorsport cars/tracks that everyone dreams to drive. Specially if no DLCs for SPA Monza n Silverstone. I understand due to licencing some things can't be added and in the end it becomes crippling to AMS. Instead AMS tries to have a bit of everything to please everyone and focuses more on its own home market.

But the worst part IMHO is the multiplayer platform. Specialy after people mentioning AC.
This is very clear.
In AC after joining, in 10 secs famous tracks and cars pop up, even if middle of a race, you can join and do some warmup practice laps and get a setup done. Some servers have auto-kick mechanisms for crashers. Others have admins that can kick/ban crashers. People share setups in chat.

AMS is the oposite, if there is a race going with car/track that you want, you have to wait it out or spectate it. If you wanna know how long it takes you have to refresh the MP lobby and even if you join and wait, the host can change track and if you don't want that race anymore it's just wasted time. If they don't put practice or qually you won't have time to fix setup if you want to. If you crash and pit because you got trolled or you just too bad at the game but want to keep driving, go singleplayer because after pits you are a spectator again. This is so frustrating and clunky it's an infuriating experience when compared to the streamlined AC where you're more time driving and less time spectating and looking for the race.

OFC people will leave the multiplayer lobby, specially if only 2 or 3 drivers join their favorite race of choice they've made. 2 or 3 guys unless they are very even in skill, it can be a very boring race.
In the end, it's easier to go into singleplayer races to do the race you want with a decent grid wich is frustrating if you were looking for multiplayer.

IDK how all other sims work, but I've raced online a lot more times in LFS(f2p), RRRE(f2p), even if the content is a lot more limited there but I just jump in and I'm in close racing and if someone is crashing a lot on purpuse and there is an admin on they get kicked or banned and that is perfect.

I think it comes from PC2 engine. IDK if I ever tried online racing on PC2 but maybe it is the same system where people are locked out of the sessions.
IDK if in iRacing it happens all the same, maybe it is the same thing but it won't be as damaging if the population is much higher and you always find races happening.

Another big part of the online population is sucked up by the F1 titles. And it's pretty simple, even if most sims get the driving better they don't get the race rules about taking pits, flags, damage and race engineer seriously. Even in iRacing grass simulator the race experience is closer to the F1 games regarding rules and flags and having those realistic elements makes a huge difference in making all the race events more meaningful and impactful.

Other people crashing has real consequences instead of just ignore them let them log out and lets race on. Some AC servers have been getting a mod for virtual safety car and some custom series used to run that.

A game from 1998s BTCC called Toca2 for PS1 did a better job with dynamic weather and forced pitstop rules in it's own championship than almost every other driving game ever. Including from sims to arcades from ACs to GTs. In 98s Toca2 if you hard-crashed 3or4 times into the back of another car you would get black flaged. In 24 years driving games regressed in some areas.
But these are already contention points for the whole sim racing industry.

In AMS2 if compared directly with AC it loses in the joining races (lots of famous cars and tracks that every kid dreams of driving) and crashing but rejoining from pits after 1min, and also AC has a ton more tracks and cars (in Ultimate edition) without the mods and even then it's so old it's dirt cheap and runs on incredibly low end machines.

ACC is way heavier than AMS2 but again it's easier to join anything, besides, the focus regarding car tracks is very specific so anyone who's got ACC already knows the content already knows what they want and the MP is very focused everyone will do those races and drive those cars.
(In AMS n AC you might find cars or tracks that are driven a lot less than other content)

Content manager has addons for certain leagues like RaceEU, SimRacingSystem, World Sim Series... IDK if they are still active but they used to be at least last year. Getting ideas of car/track combos and some "sort of" online championship series for certain car groups.

IF AMS2 got on top of the multiplayer thing more people would stick around the lobby and sessions and with bigger numbers lurking for the next race more people will try to race and eventually more will join and sessions get bigger and then people try to open more sessions with diferent cars and tracks after they get bored of GT3 Monza GT3 SPA etc... but then the begginners join those races and the veterans are doing F1 Paul Richard...

But If instead everytime you try to join a race "oops Q ended" "spectate now" wait... "track changed" then you leave multiplayer lobby and never enter a session and session numbers are low and nobody is joining anything and it becomes such a sad story and ppl go try singleplayer.

Driving is fun, tracks and cars are fun, some are a lot more obscure and unknown to the majority of people but nowdays nobody is getting into sims because of the single player experience unless it's some amazing carreer mode like GT series used to have.

Sry for the long rant, it pains me to see the lobby not populated well enough. Half of the time I join multiplayer I get more frustration out of not racing and in the end the only way to do that race is in singleplayer. If singleplayer then carreer, objectives, progression becomes the most important thing.
Nobody buys AC to do singleplayer carreer, same for most other simulation titles.
Singleplayer content people flock to stuff like Forza maybe PC2 style carreer IDK... no PC game has the GT style carreer that is a market that is untouched but nobody dares to brake ground trying it... the development cost might be huge.

AMS2 is stuck in the middleground, bettween single and multiplayer compared to other sims. There is no intense focus on each side wich leaves each side without the strenght to fight off more focused offerings from other titles that might have more engaging singleplayer content or an easier time doing a lot of multiplayer races with cars and tracks a lot of people wanna race.
Physics and FFB would have had to be perfect from day 0 for this kind of approach even have a chance at capturing considerable market.

 

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think it's a bit exaggerated. Only MP for AC? If that was the case people would probably stop making the incredible free roam tracks they do, considering MP in AC is basically Shutoko, Nordschliefe and Akina lol (not really but log on, sort by connected players and those are always at the top). I think SP is pretty significant in AC, especially with rally stages, traffic maps, etc.

AC and Forza Horizon are pretty even (the base is evenly split between 4 and 5 on PC, otherwise they would double AC). The new Forza will be a PC title and will probably give GT7 a run for their money, they just need to pay attention to the GT7 backlash and avoid something similar in their new game.

That all being said, I look forward to the upcoming improvements on the MP side and would love for the base to double. The maximum/overall count is of course important, especially to those in Europe since the peak for all sims is around 7/8pm for them. For me however, the minimum count is the most important since that typically coincides with PST evenings (it's hard to join MP lobbies at noon lol).

 

The best and only way I can sum up AMS2 in its current state from my own personal experiences over the last two years and from reading other users comments in this forum and elsewhere online, is that it’s a very strong hot lap sim, for both off line immersion and for online time trial leaderboards.