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Automobilista 2 V1.4 Force Feedback Overview & Recommendations

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Domagoj Lovric, Sep 4, 2022.

  1. Domagoj Lovric

    Domagoj Lovric Moderator Staff Member

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    With the physics and Force Feedback of Automobilista 2 having reached maturity in V1.4, here is the long-anticipated AMS2 FFB guide covering a summary of its design, explanations about the different FFB profiles & in-game FFB sliders, and recommended settings for some of the most popular wheels on the market.

    COMPONENTS OF FFB DESIGN IN AUTOMOBILISTA 2

    In real cars, the forces through the steering are composed of several parts, which are thus simulated ( or emulated) in AMS2´s FFB:
    1. Centering action, shape, and strength of which depends on vehicle suspension geometry, tire forces, components inertia, (and in case of gyroscopic wheel velocity) – this manifests itself as a 1DOF wheel movement – torque acting on the steering system, resulting in more or less severe rotation to the "right" or "left"
    2. Vibration sourced from undampened drivetrain vibrations
    3. Vibration due to road surface irregularities
    4. Vibration due to tire slip (the rattling that can shake an entire cabin as you slide down a wet road for ex)
    5. Inherent damping properties: if you steer a car that´s lifted in the air, that light "viscous“ resistance felt on the wheel is steering inherent "damping"
    6. Friction: somewhat similar to damping, the small initial resistance you have to overcome when the vehicle is not in contact with the road is inherent friction in the mechanical system.

    Both 5 & 6 (damping and friction) assume a running engine in case of hydraulic power assist. Modern electric assist systems often feature damping-compensation-maps, depending on vehicle velocity/chassis lateral acceleration.

    Aside from these which all vehicles and tires will present more or less through the actual steering wheel, there is another distinct part of the driving-feedback equation which doesn´t actually pertain to forces coming through the wheel, such as lateral / longitudinal / vertical acceleration, chassis yawing which feeds the senses through the driver’s own body in real life (the so-called "seat of the pants" feel) - racing sims have to one degree or another translate that via FFB as the one tacticle channel it has to the driver, in order to cue him/her in of what the car is doing; how those real-life dynamics are mixed in with those "cue" effects is essentially what you can configure via FFB settings, and what makes ideal FFB such an inexact and subjective science.


    IN GAME PROFILES

    AMS2 currently offers two default FFB profiles and one option for a "custom" profile. In all profiles a major part of signal output is steering torque acting around steering (kingpin) axis - how that is composed by other forces is how they may differ from each other.
    • DEFAULT profile adds on top of this base steering torque: damping, friction, few sources of vibration with a small amount of chassis "seat of pants“ feedback (mainly yaw)
    • DEFAULT+ as per the name, this is the same as the above plus some drop-off from understeer as front tires reach a critical sliding point, and slightly more chassis feedback added to the mix from lateral & longitudinal acceleration for a feel of the car´s weight transfer as load shifts in different stages of a corner. Default+ also features drivetrain vibration / pulses while the vehicle is stationary or moving slowly which directly relates to the vehicle engine configuration ( whether a 2-stroke or 4-stroke engine, how many cylinders it has and at which architecture).
    • CUSTOM as shipped with the game is just barebones steering torque acting around steering (kingpin) axis. No road vibration feedback, no damping, no friction - this profile however is editable by a user via the ffb_custom_settings.txt file located in Documents/AMS2/. Please note this is NOT customizing any of the Default profiles above, but rather allowing users to write their own FFB script using LISP-like syntax.

    Damping & friction modeling featured in both Default & Default+ profiles is inspired by modern EPAS damping models: it is not just static "viscous“ resistance but rather a complex mix of lateral acceleration, velocity & wheels slip (so damping is reduced to not "muffle" the slippage signal).

    It’s important to keep in mind that FFB is still subject to personal taste - what feels great to one user may not be so great for other users; community-made FFB profiles such as the one designed by Karsten Hvidberg, Panos Schoinohoritis Shadak, Peter Stefani, Kuku Madog, Stakanov & others have become quite popular with some users, while many prefer to stick with the game´s Default options; others in turn find their home with one of the other custom profiles available in the community.

    We encourage anyone who finds the default profiles to be lacking irrespective of configuration to visit Automobilista 2 Custom Force Feedback - Overview & Recommendations where you´ll find lots of information, files to download and questions to be answered in order for you to get the best experience from AMS2, but also try not become obsessive with the pursuit of a "magical" FFB profile - instead find something that works well enough for you and stick with it so your brain has the chance to adapt to it and “fill” whatever gaps it may still initially perceive.

    IN-GAME SLIDERS
    • GAIN - This is the overall scaling (strength) of FFB output from game. Independent to device-based Gain / Strength, it scales every aspect of FFB output: steering force, damping, vibration (FX slider);
    • LOW FORCE BOOST - this slider amplifies "light forces“, close to zero, gradually rolling off that amplification as force output increases. It's primary intended use is for wheels with low torque output in order to enhance small signals that may be missed otherwise and reduce the lightness / vagueness around the center that those lower end wheels can typically suffer from.. Alternatively, if you run a higher strength base (or even a powerful DD system), but set to run only a fraction of its output capability you may use Low Force Boost in small amounts to bring up the forces around center or these generally "lighter" forces. Keep in mind: neither damping/friction nor vibration part of signal is affected by LFB, it primarily affects base natural steering torque.
    • FX - controls vertical vibration part of signal, vibration produced by tires on heavy slippage, drivetrain vibration / pulses; it also scales chassis effects (lateral acceleration, yaw, weight transfer) present in Default and Default+
    • DAMPING – this is a complex setting that is important to be set right to your wheel, and you will find recommended setting for popular wheels below. Default setting of 50 is a good starting point. Setting it to zero is recommended only for low-torque devices with alot of internal resistance, like G25, DFP and similar. But even some low torque devices with little internal resistance benefit from damping such as the G923.
    • MENU SPRING STRENGTH - whether wheel will return to center position when on main menu (this setting is ineffective if on-track session is loaded). If you use this, set to low value on DD wheels (under 10).

    VEHICLE-SPECIFIC FFB TUNING IN SETUP SCREEN

    In each car setup screen when on track you will find VEHICLE FFB GAIN , which scales the global gain setting up or down specifically for that car.
    Code:
    resulting_gain = gain x vehicle_gain
    Users may map commands to this setting in their wheel, keyboard or button box in order to adjust it while out on track.


    RECOMMENDED SETTINGS FOR SOME OF THE MOST POPULAR DEVICES

    Common to all devices:
    Based on inherent mechanical properties of each device, some will benefit having on-device damping, friction, inertia enabled. Some small amount may be beneficial especially for direct drive wheels.

    Please keep in mind below are merely the recommended starting point, subject to variations according to personal taste.

    • IN-GAME:
      Gain: 30 - 40
      LFB: 0 - 10
      FX: 10 - 50
      Damping: 50 - 70

      ON DEVICE:
      SEN: Auto (Maximum steering angle)
      FFB: 50% (Overall FFB Strength)
      FFS: Peak (Force feedback scaling)
      NDP: 10% (Natural damper) (in case of oversteers wheel is too heavy, increase)
      NFR: 3% (Natural Friction)
      NIN: 5% (Natural inertia)
      INT: 3-4 (Interpolation filter) (if FFB feels too grainy, increase)
      FEI: 100 - 80 (Force effect intensity) (if there are too many jolts, decrease, but don't go too low)
      FOR: 100% (Force effect strength)

      SPR & DPR are DirectInput effects. DPR is not used, but if in doubt set to 0%. SPR is used for menu-centering spring (this applies to all devices)
      dd1_settings.jpg
    • IN-GAME:
      Gain: 60
      LFB: 7
      FX: 50
      Damping: 50

      ON DEVICE:
      SEN: Auto (Maximum steering angle)
      FFB: 100% (Overall FFB Strength)
      FFS: Linear (Force feedback scaling)
      NDP: 22% (Natural damper)
      NFR: 14% (Natural Friction)
      NIN: 10% (Natural inertia)
      INT: 2 - 4 (Interpolation filter)
      FEI: 80 (Force effect intensity) (recommended too have jolts under control with not much numbing)
      FOR: 100% (Force effect strength)

      SPR & DPR are DirectInput effects. DPR is not used, but if in doubt set to 0%. SPR is used for menu-centering spring (this applies to all devices)
      csl_dd.jpg

      [*]
    • IN_GAME:
      Gain: 40
      LFB: 2
      FX: 50
      Damping: 50

      TRUEDRIVE:
      Overall strength: 40 - 60%
      Steering Range: 900
      Bumpstop feel: Soft
      Bumpstop range: 900
      Reconstruction filter: 1
      Torque band width limit: 2200 Hz
      Damping: 8 - 10%
      Friction: 2 - 8%
      Inertia: 0 - 10% depending on your rim
      Static force reduction: 0 - 15% (depending on how much you reduce Overall strength, decrease. Having overall:60, static force reduction: 15 gives good tradeoff between too stiff wheel and surface details)
      Slew rate limit: 0.21 (this one is rather important, will aid in reducing rattles over curbs / sausage curbs)
      Ultra low latency mode: Off.
      Peaking and notch filter : Disabled
      Direct input effect fine tuning:
      Damping: 0%
      Friction: 0%.
      Spring: 0% (this will mean no menu centering spring, but we have noticed: occasionally, sc2 exhibits constant very stiff spring effect, making it near impossible to calibrate)


      SIMUCUBE_2_SPORT.jpg
    • IN_GAME:
      Gain: 75
      LFB: 10
      FX: 50
      Damping: 40

      t-gt_settings.jpg
    • IN_GAME:
      Gain: 80
      LFB: 50
      FX: 20
      Damping: 10
      g923-g-hub-settings.png
    • IN_GAME:
      Gain: 100
      LFB: 60
      FX: 50
      Damping: 0
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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  2. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

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    New thread with updated FFB information & recommendations as of V1.4.
     
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  3. AdrianJ

    AdrianJ Active Member

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    Is there a guide somewhere for basic editing or the ffb file so one can make (or change ) a custom ffb ?
     
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  4. Marius H

    Marius H Internal Beta Tester Reiza Backer

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    This topic looks awesome. Keep it up, Reiza!
     
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  5. Fizzy

    Fizzy Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I’d be interested to know why FFS is different for Fanatec DD1/2 vs. CSL DD (Peak v Linear). I would have thought they’d be the same.

    Edit. Thanks for making this thread btw.
     
  6. EmilG

    EmilG Member

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    When you download a custom file from this forum, the text file will actually have descriptions of what all the lines mean and how they effect the ffb.
     
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  7. José Llamas

    José Llamas Member

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    Thanks for the guide, Domagoj. But, I don't understand why is often recommended to set some damping, inertia and friction (especially damping and inertia), in my case for example 10, 8 and 10 for SimuCube. I feel the car very artifficial and with strange slow effects when turning the wheel if I put these settings... I feel perfect and natural effects if I quit all of these three parameters, to 0 all of them.
     
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  8. EmilG

    EmilG Member

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    It seems that the DRI value wasn't added to your list under the Fanatec wheels. This also plays a huge role in FFB. What would the Reiza team recommend here?
     
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  9. Anthony 123

    Anthony 123 Active Member

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    Using the recommended settings for a g29 is uncomfortable. The wheel is extremely light and touchy. Impossible to recover from slides without a lot of luck. Tons of snap oversteer. Jacking damping and lfb up make the cars much more controllable
     
  10. Domagoj Lovric

    Domagoj Lovric Moderator Staff Member

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    Note on recommended wheel settings: these are subjective settings, as ffb is. There is no one size fits all. If you are able to find a setting that works for you: post in here exact values and device used. We will revise recommended settings into ranges rather then exact values.

    Subjective. DD1 makes not much difference/ if any / same way one or the other, CSL DD to me feels nicer with linear mode.

    That is what we recommend in the context of ams2 ffb design philosophy - some baseline wheel resistance. If different settings work for you, that is absolutely great, and good thing that you can ;) I have updated the recommended range. Keep in mind it will depend on your other settings, mainly overall Gain, both in game and Strength in truedrive, so:
    post your settings pls.

    DRI setting doesn't exist on Fanatec DD's. Natural damper is equivalent of negative DRI setting on old Fanatec belt bases. We will be adding more wheelbases.

    Repeating myself here, that is great to hear :) G29 was added next to G923, but I'd be happy to split the two. Post settings you ended up with.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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  11. José Llamas

    José Llamas Member

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    Okay I'll try it this evening and I"ll post my opinion about the updated values for SC2 and if I finally put the recommended or all of them to 0 :D. Thank you!

    PS: Taking advantage from this post, I'd also like to know some information about gain. If a real old F3 has a steering torque peak of 23/24 Nm, how much gain have we to set in game, in True Drive and in the garage? I guess that 100 % in TD (to not limit the maximum SC2 torque of 25 Nm), 40 % in game options as you recommend and 75 % in the garage are a good reference for me, but then, what happens if we put 100 % in the three adjusting panels? In this case, we will feel the steering wheel as a rock, but it's impossible to exceed 25 Nm from the SimuCube SC2 Pro, so I don't understand the relation between the game bars and the torque we receive.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
  12. WhippyWhip

    WhippyWhip Active Member

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    can we get a list of commands etc that can be used in the custom files? there needs to be a comrehensive guide on what can be done in the custom file
     
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  13. kerato

    kerato New Member

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    Thanks for the nice guide. Do you recommend the same settings for Default & Default+ profiles?
     
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  14. jason clarke

    jason clarke New Member

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    interestingly i use a simucube 2 pro (not sport as in the guide) and my settings are quite different to solve the issues mentioned, for example in the guide it says to have FX in game to 50 and then turn the slew rate of the motor down to 0.21 to reduce rattles over curbs and stuff.... but those rattles are created by having FX set to 50, so what they essentially are saying is boost the FX coming from the game which then creates noise and solve it by turning down the speed and response of the motor.

    i have FX set to about 15 in game and set the simucube slew rate to off (no restriction) which basically allows the motor to perform at its best while keeping the noise (which is created by the game effects) down to non existant.

    they also recommend turning off the the ultra low latency mode and setting damping to around 10 percent, this leads to quite a lot of oscillation in the wheel when you take hands off which is not ideal, settings the damping to around 20 percent and having ultra low latency set to around 10-12 percent in my experience removes all oscillation.

    i guess we all have different settings for different reasons but im not really a fan of these settings (for the simucube) because i dont really understand the reasons for them limiting the motor settings in order to boost the game settings which lead to noise and clipping.

    big caveat though... i have not actually tried these settings yet and will when i get home, i do know that the damping set that low with no ULL will lead to oscillations though.
     
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  15. pfoetiman76

    pfoetiman76 New Member

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    Just tried the settings with a SC2 Sport. I don't like it. I will stay at the customfile @Danielkart and my settings you can see in the attached picture.

    unknown_2022.09.06-15.45.png
     
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  16. Haris1977

    Haris1977 Active Member

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    @Domagoj Lovric can you also post a pic of the recommended logitech profile settings along with the g25/27 settings? There are different opinions here
     
  17. kerato

    kerato New Member

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    I've tried this setting on DEFAULT+ profile with CSL DD (with BoostKit).
    The initial impression is that it makes more sense to me than the ones I have been using (rFuktor custom files and Daniel V44). I prefer Gain of 65~70 depend on the vehicles and will try more.
     
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  18. Elcid43

    Elcid43 Active Member

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    This is what I was looking for with my SC2 pro, thanks for pointing me in that direction.
     
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  19. kivipallur1

    kivipallur1 New Member

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    @Domagoj Lovric I suggest that Thrustmaster belt-driven wheels should be split into two categories.
    1. TGT-TSPC-TSXW with what I believe lot of users have come to a conclusion to use 100% gain TM Control Panel because these do not lose linearity and do not overheat. In AMS2 maybe a bit lower gain (65) and FX (20-30) but that's personal.
    2. More mainstream T300 and TX, which are prone to overheating and are most linear at TM CP gain around 75% (according to some homemade tests, sauce: Google). In AMS2 LFB maybe slightly higher (20) but again that's personal.
    Ofcourse there are TMX and T150 but I know horseshaite about them.
     
  20. Hatch

    Hatch New Member

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    Using the Thrustmaster wheels I always thought turning damper and spring to zero was the standard thing. Now I need to go back and retest everything!

    Personally never had any issues with over heating with my T300 even with gain at 100%. Although I have it set so the fan is always on so maybe that's made a big difference
     
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