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Physic discussion thread

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Avoletta1977, Jan 3, 2021.

  1. CatAstrophe05

    CatAstrophe05 The Andrea De Cesaris of simracing

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    I don't know if it's just down to my technique or not but compared to other sims the brakes seem extremely prone to overheating, especially on the Formula Retro G1. I have to have my brake sensitivity very low and even with that low sensitivity I have to feather the brakes just to make sure they don't start overheating. I'm not sure quite why this is, but I guess at least on the bright side it's taught me about brake conservation :p
     
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  2. Alwin Papegaaij

    Alwin Papegaaij Active Member

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    Did you maybe use a setup from the time trial leadership board?
    If so, check if the brake ducts are all the way closed.
    My experience is that I can close them quite a lot before the brakes start to overheat
     
  3. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Lowering brake pressure does not help with temperatures. You need to open the front brake ducts fully (100%). These cars have quite small front rims and I guess the brake discs are somewhat small as a result.
     
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  4. BrunoB

    BrunoB TT mode tifosi

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    Are you sure you mean brake "sensitivity" and not brake pressure?
    Because brake sensitivity is just a misspelling of brake pedal "law" - where only 50% is linear and 50+ is more and more "hyperbolean" where the start stroke have high sensi and more stroke have lower sensi/impact on the brake effect.
     
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  5. ramsay

    ramsay Active Member

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    Well I only have experience driving mainly the Lotus 72E. IIRC the real car had inboard brakes as did the Mclaren M23's rear brakes which I guess were cooled by ducting/openings in the bodywork. So I don't know if that has a bearing on the brake performance or cooling but after approx. 2/3 laps around Adelaide they are constantly overheated even with ducts at 100%. I don't know if adjusting the ducts even make much of a difference to the cooling. The same issue with the 620R Caterham which has no brake ducts to adjust.

    Tried various settings and gave up and just accepted it as something to put up with.
     
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  6. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    Thanks.
    Could you in your own time ie sit in pro car and or c9 on track or in pit and slowly increase rpm from idle (neutral gear) and have nice progression or does it jump rpm to ie 4k or so? c9
    Edit
    If you set to default 50 what happens? how do trickiest of cars feel at default 50 in comparison.
    Pls mention cars used.
    Sry for all the Qs:)
    ref vid

    @CrimsonEminence hi Crimson, yes Im also/was happy with 50, kindof used to it. however lowered it gives me more fine balance on the limit of grip in wet/dry corners etc because 'jump in outup is progressive feathering throttle
    I think some cars have received a lot of flack like c9 etc and this jump will have contributed as most probably have run default 50. with it suddenes
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  7. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Yeah, i'm happy at 50 now for some reason, but i really don't see any reason, why you shouldn't use the sensitivity slider to an advantage.

    Back then when cars brake response curves were really weird in AMS2, 35 sensitivity was almost mandatory for the "slightly softer" loadcell of the CSP V3 here.

    A car has its own hardware, built to fit its components and purpose and it's not always easy to recreate. I even found some IRL throttle pedals to be even MORE sensitive than some cars in racing sims with proper throttle map...i was also starting a garage welded dirt buggy like a moped, because i wasn't understanding its clutch bitepoint and throttle "curve"...it got "reeeeeeee" and i even ran over a welding mask from a buddy :D :whistle:

    Btw. tagging in an edit doesn't seem to notify the tagged user, but only in a new post. Noticed it yesterday, it's the same here like at RD.
     
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  8. Kuku Maddog

    Kuku Maddog Flying Kiwi AMS2 Club Member

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    Just tried the c9 and pro car, both pretty wacky in same way. and the c9 is reving up even before throttle telemetry registered on graph, maybe that’s why I hate that thing.
    Doesn’t make much difference what sensitivity settings
     
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  9. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    Thanks still not sure how all this forum stuff works tagg etc
    Ok thanks.
    From my perspective its simply that at default 50 (and we know some defaults have improved)
    gradual throttle increase should allow any rpm to be selected in any car. this is not possible it seems atm. but is possible with lower ie 20 approx.
    So devs should/could reset 50 to be absolutely progressive as RL
    . If then he/she/me wanted a more snappy fast throttle I just increase to say 70. (probably the current 50 equivalent . unknown)
    This default 50 and its hole has potentially caused much bad feedback and driving impressions as well as effecting the entire transmission line with respect to on off throttle response.
    really have to work now. Thanks for respsonses
     
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  10. TRCB

    TRCB Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Thanks a lot for these last few posts, the formula vintage cars have always been a bit of a difficult one for me (to the point where i drive vintage in RF2 only) for me because of this problem, go around a corner, breathe on the throttle and it's spin-city.. Didnt occur to me to check that throttle response, i was idling at three and no control between 3 and 5.5krpm, just instant on, after adjusting it down to 20% response I can now get out of corners still facing forward ;).

    On my bike, my throttle maps essentially change 100% throttle position from 1/3rd twist, half twist, full twist, but, in all maps I can make minute movements that still allow me to adjust rpm very finely, still linear ramp but over less rotation limit, with this "fix" the car can still get to max rpm, just a slower ramp, which cannot be linear? so is this a general game bug, only certain cars bug? Fanatec bug? Making me want to go check my "problem" cars in other games as well now ;)

    (dd1 and v3 pedals fwiw)
     
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  11. azaris

    azaris Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Niels has often complained about the throttle response in many sims being wrong (too much throttle required to maintain constant rpms) and mentioned how they worked with Renato to get it right in AMS1. I assume the peaky throttle curves from AMS1 are also replicated in AMS2:



    In any case, pedal linearity adjustments are perfectly fine to make the cars easier to control under throttle and braking.
     
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  12. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    Thanks for trying and feedback glad it help, hope others will try and devs will look at default '50'
    progressiveness or not as the case seems to be.
    Any tube vid with a/any 'car' warmup like below the driver/mechanic in this case has full 1:1 control of rpm/and ((bhp output therefore)), just like our right foot & should have here (at default imo not 20 or less)
    . at 1.15mins he briefly allows idle when he thinks its warmed enough, nonetheless he has full control and can hold at any rpm he wishes as does the driver when driving.
    50 setting will not allow this at present in all cars tested this end. inc gt3, gt1 gte, old mini class lotus 23? retro, C9 etc.
    Its not so much making the cars 'easier' but making the default setting accurate (realistic) to real world vehicles irrespective of class. the cars have been made 'harder' @ 50 default from the start. or changed along the way inadvertently or not
    For those that never considered this setting adjustment in game, myself included its a nice supprise to find some 'quirks' have diminished/disappeared and making a car dance with power oversteer or catching a slide, feeling a more natural engine break effect etc. Just makes the Sim shine more than before. Personally I like and have grown used to the 50, wrongly thinking that the car throttle responses were 'normal' never considered changing this 'off and jumpy' setting.


    1;1 progression should be default Edit: In other words when I adjust throttle I should be able to modulate from idle to any rmp I choose 1200 1400 3000 etc
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2021
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  13. David Vickery

    David Vickery Member AMS2 Club Member

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    As per your suggestion, I've tried in the Pro Car and C9, also the Formula Vintage Gen 1.
    I can sit in neutral and hold revs wherever I need using the default of 50.
    Being in neutral it will be extremely sensitive and I think in your video of the guy warming up the engine you'll find he's only using a fraction of the throttle range.
    For me, I would say that is entirely correct and exactly how it should be. It doesn't take much power to get the engine to rev in neutral, and so will only require a small throttle opening to achieve it.
     
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  14. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Even if reducing throttle sensitivity is making the engine rpm control easier (and considerable as helpful, like mentioned), please don't fall for the misconception, that 50% throttle should be 50% torque or RPM. That's not how it works. It's not linear, it's not 1:1!
     
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  15. oez

    oez Mayor of Long Beach AMS2 Club Member

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    I agree with what is being said regarding non-linear response in real life and also the fact that throttle sensitivity is there for you to adjust. AMS2 really does it nicely with the feeling of torque with just some throttle opening in lower revs. This is a crucial element to how cars drive in slow corners and might confuse sim hoppers. Just something you have to get used to. Once revs climb, the throttle will actually start throttling and you won't move that much without opening it some more.

    But I also happen to think that if the first 2000 revs and for example 100Nm of torque beyond idle RPM are very finicky then perhaps the curve could be adjusted "globally" so there is a bit more granularity in that first few % of throttle input. If this was the default 50 then people could adjust it from there. Just like someone suggested earlier.

    However I understand that it's a complicated topic. So I'm not saying "just do this", simply giving my +1 that there might be some room for improvement in the base throttle input curve (NOT the throttle maps themselves necessarily).
     
  16. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    Yes, by 1 : 1
    general.
    I specifically mean I or anybody and my throttle movement be it pulling a throttle cable, pushing a pedal or butterfly as in vid means I can control the revs with progression and not have it suddenly jump from 3000 rpm to 6ooo rpm as is the case with some/most cars default.
    This is the crux of the issue.
    its effect is stationary and importantly whilst driving
    Easy to test in game as some have and in real life if one has a vehicle outside you will be able to adjust rpm to whatever you wish, naturally. if it jumped 3k rpm from you holding 1000rpm and slowly increasing you'd take it back to garage.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  17. TRCB

    TRCB Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    not sure what is "right" or "wrong", I was not even born when these cars were on the road, but i can say that the "fix" makes these cars in AMS2 now finally driveable and on par with this class of car in all my other games. interestingly the same car in AMS1 which default sto 100% throttle does not do this either. irrespective, I am glad this fixes it, i can finally enjoy these cars in AMS2.

    AMS2, I have little to no control at all between 3krpm and ~5.5krpm. it just jumps, throttle response to 18% and it "behaves" like other games.


    AMS1 same car, standard setup.
    (interesting sidenote that the idle was at 2K in AMS1 and its at nearly 3K in AMS2?)


    RF2 (not same car but you get the idea)


    AC


    and the joker prize, R3E, not relevant at all because its a completely different class of car as r3e does not have the classics. I added it because you can see my throttle input vs response, I didnt think to turn those on in the other videos sadly. but im sure we get the idea. In all the clips except AMS2 on default settings I was able to easily control low rev range from idle, none of them did that sudden jump.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  18. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    :D
    Have fun:D
    Thank you for taking the time to test and also vid evidence hope fully this will encourage more to test/try/report back
    Q what pedals do you have?
    I reported/asked about this and showed real car video of idle. Back in 2020 as it would of course effect transmission line/engine braking etc
    Edit I would make your 18 setting video public to help the many others that are not in forum to read any relevant posts. This may also encourage others to enjoy more car class's they may have been put off driving.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2021
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  19. Split Second

    Split Second Active Member

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    Is the fix to decrease the sensitivity? And do you have videos of how the cars behave with and without decreasing the sensitivity, and I mean when you are driving and how they behave in corners and such and slow speed? I am curious if you can see the difference.
     
  20. McClutch

    McClutch Well-Known Member

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    Logically this would also explain the constant understeer tendency in a lot of cars, since the differential will never switch to coast when there is the slightes throttle pressure. irregular high preloads would be needed for coast. THis would also explain why the rsr74 swings around in slow corners... the diff is always on power ramp, since there is no low torque condition.
     
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