Physic discussion thread

Added 150 viscous lsd too. No The gt1, was going to do gt3 next. had heard it was a bad drive and I dont prefer it but will give it a whirl.

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yes and with games the designers as you know can often make a person be better at it than they are, such as in ACC maybe as a design choice - so I guess a bunch of compromises happen. Eg in Forza Horizon - in the spirit of 'fun' - they throw millions of credits at you and basically every car worth driving, no effort needed.

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These are high powered applications of the principles of forces etc, and I for one when getting on the power like it better with no help from design choices. Thats my guess of where ACC may be different.

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With those settings when driving to fast breaking and heck, even turning oversteer, suffer badly. ha

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The GT3 McLaren is basically Ideal around imola I would think based on half a lap. Big difference.

 

So what would the physics be doing at imola with MC-L gt3? Drives great. Compares very favorably, for example to ACC.

However I do see how a fully working system or a system that spits out the right results toward such a thing would be beneficial for a sim that replicates more than just GT3/4 cars.

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Im converted, gee thats dumb lol should have used the gt3 in this instance more of the time.

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Just had a race and laps for a few hours and gf too could even drive it, at imola, and its actually night and day to AMS2.

I did not think the difference was this big, but that is ok. Its on the right path at least. But yes the difference between ice skating and rolling probably. Basically as posters on here said before I came to see; you lift off the throttle and it turns better, put it on and its more in-line with what you would expect. And everything in between.

Of course outside of an actual race the whole thing is subdued - going round Zandvoort the other week (months ago actually) 50+ times was very calming so the experience is somewhat subdued. But its fairly exciting and A.I is decent. Does not totally invalidate the merits of AMS2 at all so I hope this is not me gushing. Its not.

 

Just to add to my impressions several hours later. First across about 16 hours or so on and off have tried Assetto Corsa with sol and new rain patch and the so called top 10 lists... then ran imola, first at night then in day and usually in ferrarai and McL720 iirc or 650

then ACC with ferarai and mc l,

then rfactor2 with ferarai and that and various circuits like leguna seca but mostly imola

then back to AMS2 at imola and with mcL gt3.

ergo I left out raceroom its off the disk, and left out AMS 1 even though I have that one ready to go.

I would rate this in stuff in AMS2 highly still and while I feel as though I need to drive slower to get the same kind of thing happening - I think the slipperyness of the car is about a medium, rather than a high.

The most disappointing overall is AC to me, because I wish ACC was AC due to its expansiveness, but it is not; hence why it was deleted off my disk recently; but surprisingly all the content from the manager was there in terms of profiles so it was nothing to set it up again. and the windscreen wiper. never got the fuss about the game apart from mods, but its not bad.

With that title the only thing to do is branch out and enjoy the mods in AC because a lot of the regular stuff is simply not in my way as good as later things.

Anyway as a whole package I think thats an excellent result after an april release iirc for AMS2 - to be medium movement - where AC for example is simply sloppy by comparison to ACC (a lot of the time but not all) and even compared to some of the less stellar at times AMS2 content in the past if I am being honest; so while AC is a good game no question I would not place it above much of AMS2 if one had to pick 'just one title'. An example of good time is on 160s Nordschlief and in some hotted up mod-cars. And maybe its all very subjective; but I of course rate those slippery usually, and AMS2 medium or medium firmness in movement (4D plane kind of thinking) mostly - of course I find the MCR2000 slippy and sublime. Anecdotal as that is, thats the impression, but I would not call it broken as sometimes this thread may allude to or something.

Have played for 250 hours now however only truly getting average after hour 220, and then my partner plays it as well and sometimes she hogs it with glee.

 

@Raceracerace I hope you won't take this the wrong way, I really do mean it in the nicest possible way as its great to see how enthusiastic you are about the sim. But for me at least it would be great if this thread could stay, as much as is possible, focused on the more technical side of things. It is afterall hopefully going to be a discussion of the physics of AMS 2 and although its almost impossible to discuss the physics of anything without straying into the subjective. Especially when trying to describe things that we don't all have a thorough technical understanding of. I know I struggle with even the most fundemental concepts. It would be cool if this was a technical thread.

Anyway in short what I'm trying to say is your last few posts have been a bit on the long side and quite subjective. I'm not sure what they bring to a discussion on physics.

If i'm out of line here please all feel free to dislike this comment into oblivion and i will keep my mouth shut in future.

 

I agree, but also understand how important it is to have an outlet for misc raves and rants or meta discussion. I think there are other threads for that though .

In my mind this thread should stick to constructive physics discussion. And it should be somewhat isolated testing when possible and not vague subjective feels.

Obviously you still have active discussion in the beta section physics thread for upcoming updates, but we can focus on the public releases here.

I don’t know if it helps Reiza directly with the amount of noise here. But at least some of you backers like @CrimsonEminence can take useful info forwards.

 

well, science is observation my friend. And I would not discount any comment on this issue - even the fact that you yourself see no value in observation.

Ignorance and science do not get much done together.

Indeed.

We must ask ourselves why the 'physics' of assetto corsa and peoples top 10 lists include 'stuff', like F1 2000 ferrarai mod, and frankenstein. which is anything but believable, good, or whatever.

Why 4k on any given day, at any one time think that kind of thing is great, and here we are dithering about locking diffs - which probably makes up about 5% of the quality of the gameplay.

In other words - how much will this issue impinge things. I doubt the physic's time to shine is today - it can't even shine when planets are involved or atoms. A niche of a niche.

The thread, I believe is simply someone's pedantic attempt to have an affect on something so large that they are trying to get a handle on - in the spirit of dominance of control, and denial of area, of others - from an authority position that is self assumed - the number cruncher guy(s) will simply get around to this issue themselves, because the company had 7 people, then 15, and probably now about 20 maybe, but they will get around to it.

No amount of talking is going to change that. No amount of 'I wish it was' - and 'oh here is a graph about my wheel spin' from moso will change that.

I tried to provide an insight - and my enthusiasm is not dented, but I know where the game sits in my library - its not being deleted, but I refuse to put it on a pedestal, its fun, dude, but its not worth this amount of investment; I am quite happy to lend a hand in whatever small way for reiza as I see fit, but I am not you.

I totally get data sets - believe me, I do. Forgive me if I am not concerned...

 

Arhahah, I am more looking at it through the prism of commercialism and attraction of players of the genre, niche as it is.

Analysis is paralysis, and it can also be autistic. I do not have time for logical quirks...I am talking about PHYSICS - and how one may find it from an absolutely (or in the spirit of) pragmatism.

Do we see any of the youtube people stopping their vids, where they are having fun, to discuss this?

Its ok to establish a baseline - a reference point, and how the data across the industry plays out and where AMS2 may sit. Does it delineate, and what is the separation in terms of progress.

If you believe you can look at that through the prism before us now (excluding a wider look) at how things are done, then by all means.

Sure, the company does not have many people in it and could use a few extra hands on deck - I've got news for you.

That news is, your ability to affect the project is rather limited. Mine is. The value of keeping this thread somehow "pure" is a nonsense.

Whatever makes you sleep better at night - but you got 1 month probably before any change. Then maybe another 6.

IF you want to worry yourself sick during that time and ignore the FUN aspects of things.

Then I pity you.

Maybe in the beta section there's some high level strategical and scientific or numerical discussion going on, good for you, but out here with the plebs, I paid for a product and one day it may get to some kind of level - but I won't be worrying enough to try and tell the guys who MADE about 5 other titles how to organize their physics.

Pathetic or insecure. Not sure.

I used to ride motorbikes a lot and there was a lot of measuring going on for the crutch area. If you know a lot about mechanical engineering then good for you. Congrats - why are you not in brazil programming with the team instead of blithering on about a project still being developed.

They swap out some numbers - OH but which ones.

You're not a genius, and I'd rather let the work happen. But this is NOT a science project, bro - its a game.

There's your paradigm shift. Its not your pet. I've been on a holiday this year, maybe its time some of you guys go on one and chill out.

 

I tested the F309 again at Goiania Short, but this time in both AMSs so we can compare their default setups directly. And I want to emphasize that the default has values that should already be quite loose. Every driver is unique, but you can only get the rear a hint looser if you want to.

Here is AMS1. See how the differential gradually opens up very early. I put the playhead where I think the rear is showing relevant openness (different rear tire speeds). It's quite early into T1 approach. I found that I drive this car fast in pretty much the same way I would drive a car like this fast in other sims (not AMS2). So my point here is that the early opening of the differential manifests as agility and great steering response. Something Crimson mentioned earlier. The point is not that this is somehow more accurate or more realistic. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But the effect on car control is there.



Here is AMS2. See how the differential... doesn't open at all in T1. And actually that saw pattern near the apex (bottom of the graph) is my brain responding to what's not happening. This is lap 10 so I have had time to settle in. And I know these AMS2 LSD rears well by now so I quickly dropped the race car 101 way of driving a car like this. Doing those kinds of Senna throttle stabs keeps the rear loose. Ultimately car control is a fun game in itself and I can do it like this too. But I know a lot of people find this offputting and I don't think there's any particular reason to force to this way of driving. I would love to see how the car changes with a diff that opens earlier and gradually.



Lets be positive for a bit: the upside of all of this is that either I or AMS2 has gotten really good at throttle oversteer feel. It's like second nature to me now. Driving a car that's built for this kind of driving like the Super V8 is a lovely experience. I felt lost in AMS1 trying to do the same thing.

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Unrelated response

I see what you're saying @Raceracerace. But please don't pity anyone of us. That's rude. Technical analysis can also be a lot of fun. If it's not to you then please continue playing the sim. PS. In case me mentioning "noise" set you off, I meant the fact that this public forum is a pretty uncontrolled environment with a lot of posts compared to a closed beta Reiza facilitates. And in that I agree with you that they may just want to ignore this completely.

 

Normally I am more familiar with insight providing to organizations, sometimes about their structure, the remit of the ceo, or about brands and the like. Usually in sports and I have delved into over time what causes people to go to stadia and other things - science is strong in me, true.

But this is about Brand just now, and I have been privy to certain things over time about what makes certain organizations more brand-value than others. The physics is the gate, I will say that. Its not the whole picture though.

@oez and others. I do admire your commitment to this line of thinking though. I am not against you, would rather support peoples efforts - afterall I am not above criticism and people contribute in different ways.

So its night here, I have some time and I was watching videos and whatnot, I just happened onto these so called "brilliant" tracks in assetto / car combinations. Its got nothing on AMS2. But people are creatures of habbit, however I came in fresh - so I am not into the golden oldies as much. People are looking for something new.

I just drove around Brands Hatch in the porche gt3 (not the cup ones), I reduced toe in the positive a few points to less positive and the negative toe to less negative. It handles like a dream.

Yes, madness engine seems to be slidy - but I think Reiza did a job to reduce it well enough. If something as wild as the porche in handling can handle that well, why would the rest of the cars not follow one day in that place. Got around there in 1.29.2 which is not that flat but it does not throw up too many glaring issues in that setup in terms of drivability.

Its probably possible that was the main concern before all else.

Will changes to this affect fun levels?

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I see what you are doing you are substantiating your claims. Thats fine, the line of enquiry is good don't worry man. What I was seeing as of this patch - hence its presence in the /other/ thread is that ARK did not focus on goodness until 2-3 years in. They focused on features...same football manager match engine people get worked up year in year out. etc. but it sells more each time.

I think rezia is back onto working on the engine etc, probably - as per their public release outline, so I do appreciate the timing of this stuff. All good. I do look out for his thing once a month on steam. I did drop this title until it baked though as I suspect many have. I do get impressed and defensive of that a little (the being impressed as I am generally positive) as you may have seen.

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I would be misunderstood - I do not explain always fully right - but consider a title you consider 1.0

AMS 2 should aim to get to within 10% or so of its realism or status quo to lets say .80 -.85. Anything that takes away from that will simply give them another clone of that [1.0] game, and quite possibly, may not be differentiated as a product enough to warrant further development.

So we can talk about physics - of which I have an interest in even in wider fields than this but do not intend to meddle in the affairs of others on here and what they want to post - but it should mesh well with the brand and concept of what the game is about.

From a brand value perspective, there's a reason those titles are seeing that they're seeing.

Rfactor 2 - physics (my estimation ) by some measures...right, plz stick with this... that some people on AMS2 discussions (not you oez or anyone here) have stated they WANT something near Rfactor2....nah...well they're not that good to warrant 2 games the exact same - nothing is. 650 people last x amount of days on Rfactor2.

So... I want you to put your clever mind to these things you do, I just do not think they should be making the mistake of making a brand-carbon-copy of such games which already exist - content is same across games, so this is why I suggest this. To essentially arrive at another 650 strong-concurrent crowd is not the positioning.

The madness engine is the star here and Reiza, yes. I would only ever say buff what is strong, and not what is weak [in the genre]. There is a reason why people are excited for this product, and I hope the diff thing gets resolved and I think it will given how much light is shone on that area.

Thanks for reading.

 

You're welcome.
If only I could understand whatever you write...

 

People who work on the bottom levels of organizations should not dictate work flow.

Thats what I wrote - and its how you get paid in your life, mate; you accept it elsewhere accept it from this company.


This physics bender is coming from deeper dissatisfaction probably within you across the whole genre, because the title should it receive these updates as you put them will be no more or less popular next month simply because of it.

And sorry! If that sounds insulting! Its not! I mean: psychologically IF you experience that you won't be happier or better off for it, of which you will soon realize, its only the chase of that.

Better focused on are features themselves.

Whatever was decided months ago as to work flow is probably the imperative, maybe it even includes this issue.

This is no different to twitter - its just a championing issue.

Whatever the guy who writes the monthly updates on steam has got planned (and made in time, because all plans are flexible, true, to a degree outside of imperative) is probably the best course of action.

 

Just for comparisons sake, here's an early lap in AMS2, F309, Goiania Short. It's from the same test session as the graph in my post above. This was fresh from driving over 10 laps in AMS1 so I carried over the same driving style.

The rear is just not working with me at all in T1. That's almost at the apex. With that amount of steering input and trail brake, the differential should really be letting the rear tires spin at different speeds. As expected, the car felt like it did not want to rotate. I guess if we wanted to focus on data and not anecdotal evidence, there should be another graph showing the amount of rotation (yaw?).



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Unrelated:

@Raceracerace I know what you mean. I've been defensive about AMS2 before, because it has many unique positive aspects about it. It's a very good game/sim and speaks of Reiza's passion to the game. What we're discussing here is not the only thing that matters. It depends on your driving style too. It can be a nightmare for a super clinical driver who does everything by the book and calculating the proper amount of input into every corner. But then you have a lot of people like me who just learn a car by driving it a lot and don't worry about the rule book. AMS2 talks to me so much that that's easy to do.

But we can drop that defensive thinking for a second I think, because we should all be friendly to the sim to begin with. This is not a place to bash it for kicks. The only thing that gets to me is when the criticism seems clueless and jumps to conclusions. Feel free to point out if I do the same.

 

Thats true. And rears can be vague. Mentioned by several sources.

Maybe where its good to brake is sometimes off, perhaps, and the AI can leave drivers behind if he is trying to do it by the textbook - meaning vision on screen not matching up with potential in the engine... but I would say thats a limitation of the various disparate systems put into all these games, and not just this title. I bet the engine has quirks like that - but its just a code base, so we need to drive it (and I try to tell myself this all the time) to drive it how the code dictates and not always what I want - because I am not even the best driver going, I do think I should drive more to the code base; though that shifts a lot these days haha.

I completely can understand that. Another example is when you must consider the wheels which are NOT on the monitor (either side), but you need to place them on the curb in game. Sometimes the perspectives are hard because everything happens so fast.

At 100km's hour a motorbike rider has only 2 seconds to react to something happening just up ahead. Time and space/distance in motorsports is a big deal, and hopefully the engine can handle it! The eyes we have are not always up to the task due to our brains, evolution as well. Tricky

 

second post, but please read the above, it may be hard but its spot-on.

So with anything we already own the title, now some marketing.

Why would they want to sell to us - we either bought it in early access or just after! I bought it on day one.

You can't sell to the 600 (lets say 690 concurrent today)... because the dif issue is not the problem in an egalitarian society like markets are..

they have to sell to the multitude, the...hm, lets say... the 5000 playing assetto at a time.

BUT! You can't even sell to them, you must sell to the people who are NOT the core. (us)

I just played assetto, and a diff thing is not going to get these people. The original assetto is naff on levels I think many of you do not appreciate.

Why do you think RAM is now sold with RGB?

Guys... secret time: when we sell for colour and nonsense, we are appealing to the flashy side of our nature..people laugh and they say 'haha we got nothing left". The diff issue is a small thing most do not notice. Yet more RAM will be sold for colour and flashyness this year than money we will probably see in a lifetime. It serves no purpose.

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What do we care - it won't make it more fun and you will probably play it anyway.

I am just going to say that this manipulation of which I am on the receiving end of myself and we all are, persuasion, is only so useful - sometimes we want that which spites our face, to scratch our nose.

Meaning of course some people backed the project and they feel connected to [their] vision for it, in early access.

Newsflash - I still hold an interest on some level for day z (even though someone pointed it out to me and I barely played it)... even fortnight started off wonky.

How does this matter?

So, the game is widely praised by those who know it - funny diff issues and everything.

There's no legs there - they will solve it one friday afternoon probably a few months from now. Which means they get double the amount of work done in that period.

You can dither on the merits of the design - I am going to drive the Porche around - look forward to seeing the next data points.

 

Seriously mate, do you think that what you write makes any sense?

 

yeah... it’s quite evident you are too far away for my limited understanding of whatever you are talking about.

 

I don't know if that 3xrace guy is Kollision or not, but he is successfully deviating the thread away from the subject. Let's just hit that Ignore button and keep on discussing constructively instead of letting ourselves get sucked into discussing with veteran trolls.

Remember: they make us go down to their level and they will beat us with experience.

 

Naah... he seems so expert about “something”.

Let’s just wait until he learns how to write...
Then we will finally see the light and stop wasting our lives.

Please Lord, save us.

 

Time to hit the Ignore Button again?

 

Already ignored long ago. There is great, informative and interesting content here, though, from the people contributing to the science. Worth reading even if you have to skip some other messages to get to it.

Thanks for starting this thread in the general area so @oez could contribute. Of course, we also see why the official thread is in the restricted beta area, but let's keep the exception for this topic since it is so important to the future of AMS 2.

My own suspicion is that the LSD programming was bungled in Madness all along and that is part of the reason they "gave up" and went with the ludicrous "smorgasbord" approach to diff settings in PC and PC 2 instead of matching the appropriate diffs with the appropriate vehicles. We know Reiza will eventually get there with the realistic choices, but until the vanilla clutch LSD behaves as it should, they seem stuck in a interim solutions world.

What I would appreciate from the experts here is a list of what are the real diffs on the cars in AMS 2. It is my belief (hoping to be backed-up by science ) that the vast majority of the cars do not have adjustable diffs and those that are adjustable have very limited adjustments. Applying advanced modern F1 ranges of adjusting diffs to "normal" cars has always been a big issue for me.