Supercar DLC driving test.

I want to do a small experiment if you have some time and the Supercars DLC.

I want you to do a 10 lap race with the McLaren Senna, write down how you think it drives.

Then do a 10 lap race with the Brabham in the same class and write down how you think it drives.

(I picked these 2 particular cars because I believe they are the most flawed after the latest update)

Please use the following settings and track
Noon.
Aug 8th 2023
Clear.
Jerez moto
Live track to medium rubber

The goal is to make sure the overall driving behavior of the car is carried across between different users of AMS 2.

After the weekend, I will go pull my notes from the beta forum for you to compare to your own. I believe we will see similar car behavior from user to user. (as should be expected)

Videos welcome

 

Will undertake this, without doing a thing to my installation.

 

Would be doubly curious to see a before and after reinstalling if at all possible.

 

So I don't have the technical acumen of Pai but here are my thoughts.

I only drove these 2 cars very briefly when they where released, so am pretty much a virgin with them.

McLaren: Yeah, don't really like it, seems to wander a bit like the Group C Porsche, I feel some kind of deadzone on the steering wheel that haven't felt in any car so far. It slides a little too much, I don't think its awful by any means and I have no idea how this thing should drive in real life, but in game it felt too loose for my liking.
Managed a 1:42.9, could only keep up with the slowest Brabhams and ended up spinning out of the hairpin on lap 7 when I tried to lower the TC to 0. The tires got a little warm after 3 laps but manageable and never overheated.

Brabham: I actually enjoyed this one quite a bit, understeers quite a bit but it feels connected and the slides feel much more natural than in the McLaren. Its also a whole lot faster than the McLaren feels almost like a GT3 car, managed a 1:36.3 on the very last lap.
Tires where about 1/3 gone, I started the race at 0 TC, had to increase it to 2 by the end to not lose too much time, so maybe I could have been faster with fresher tires at the beginning had not started with 0 TC.

Overall I actually liked the Brabham, good FFB and the car felt how I think a hypercar should feel, incredibly fast but not as stable as a full racing car. The McLaren on the other side, felt too loose and the FFB had that annoying deadzone and the car wandered a bit. The AI behaved themselves well enough had no issues with them, although in the Brabham race I was alone the whole time, forgot to increase the strength and really didn't bother to restart, wanted to check the car more than anything else.

So Dylan are my impressions similar to yours?

 

Just so we're clear, I just typed out a report, combining my 2 beta reports combined with a test I did tonight using the settings I laid out for this experement. I did not look at Mazda's report before hand, and I will upload it sometime sunday evening.

Would like to get at least 5-10 people

 

Just finished the test. I had never driven this class before this thread.

With the McLaren, I actually did some laps on test day before jumping straight in a race. I did not like it: it has a severe problem with the rear end being borked. Grip is completely on/off, driving OK until you hit a cliff and it just slides. Depending on how fast did you exceed the cliff and how the tyres were at that moment, the rear end will push the front end off the track in a static, ice-like slide, or you can bring back the slide while bleeding lots of momentum, or you will just spin completely and hope to not crash it. This is compounded by the car's trend to overheat tyres massively, which means that after some laps you are just underdriving on corner entry, because if you get oversteer on that phase, you have very little chances of saving it. It frankly feels like iRacing some 9 years ago, and that is, to put it mildly, AWFUL.

I tried to first deactivate aids, because on default they are really intrusive, and felt more like a passenger of the car. But physics are so bad on this car that you need the aids to not spin and crash, so ended up rising them until leaving them at 7. By this point, I was trying to do races, and getting seriously infuriated in crashing out completely out of the blue several times. It took one unexpected AI move to put me in a position where I could do nothing but spin out. Every corner entry around the track I was in fear. Best lap was a 1:43.7.

For the Brabham, I just jumped into a race and completed it in one go, starting last and finishing 3rd. This car was completely different, the only thing in common is that rears also overheated, but to a lesser degree. It felt very natural, and I could drive it, push it, and hustle it. Driving aids are a bit intrusive on corner entry, but on exit you can easily go past what the TC can prevent at 6 (default setting). Exceeding the limits of grip was just jumping on the dance floor, which is what AMS2 is about, and I could use a bit of rear slide to point the car to where I wanted it to go, and play with the trailbrake to decide how to tackle corners. It took me some laps to find where the limits where, as I was over/under driving around the track. When I nailed those last laps, I made a big jump in pace over the AI, which was at 110, and ended up just 5 tenths behind the Top 2. Best lap was a 37.4.

Seeing laptimes, it's clear that Mazdaspeed is way better driver than me

 

This is your main modded game or the beta?

 

Main game. I've got no mods at the moment, uninstalled them all a while ago, deleted Documents folder, and ran a Steam Verification. Would you like for me to repeat the test with the Beta?

 

Totally up to you. (If you haven't been using these cars as the basis for a mod, they should be the same regardless.)

 

Basically the same feeling as myself with both cars! I really did enjoy the Brabham and although bad, I wouldn't call the McLaren awful, I think there must be some issue with the FFB in that car. I would call awful the Old Stock before 1.5, that was a proper mess.

 

If you wish to see my thoughts early, you can highlight over this, otherwise I'll change the text color Sunday
Hello, the following is a collection of my notes posted in the Beta Forum in regards to the McLaren Senna and the Brabham BT62 Hypercars from the dates of Jul 15, 2023 Post number 1790 and Jul 20, 2023 Post Number 2304, as well as my most recent thoughts as of 8/26/2023.


I picked both of these cars for this test for the following reasons.
1. They both share a unique to them, semi slick tire that is supposed to be identical within the simulation.
2. They are not very popular as racing cars, and should allow testers to judge them unbiasedly
3. Both cars feature unique and Obvious driving and FFB characteristics which differentiate them
4. I believe both of these cars are the most flawed examples of automobiles in Automobilista 2 post 1.5

The Goal of this study is to prove that the physics between users of AMS 2 are the same, and also to investigate why there are sometimes conflicting reports about car handling characteristics. (Leaving out AI, because as the CART debacle proves, they are a lot more complicated than they may seem on the surface.)

PN 1790 was created shortly after these cars received the first version of the 1.5 update within the AMS 2 Beta. As I was one of the most vocal of the people who criticized these cars pre 1.5, I figured it was only fair to test them again. (Please note, I did not use the settings listed in the challenge. I often swap between Adelade, and Jerez as my go to test tracks)

Start Report

”The Hypercar class is interesting, someone mentioned these cars feel like they are on older physics...


The Brabham feels much more like 1.4 with a over abundance of slip angle. But you can more clearly feel the tires in 1.5 and what the car is actually wanting you to do. It's loose, but it's not untamable, and sliding around will cost you time. The best way I can describe it, is the Brabham drives like I would expect in DriveClub be that good or bad. It's very progressive and easy to drive at the limit.


The Senna feels the exact opposite. It's completely numb, refuses to accept any slip angle what so ever, and almost feels like it has a sticky diff like in the Pre 1.3 days through slow corners. It's much harder to driver on slow tracks than the Brabham because the back end is constantly trying to over (or under) rotate on or off throttle. it's never neutral feeling, and It just doesn't feel good IMO.


(Then again, Maybe that's accurate for the Senna because it's 3000lb and 800hp on super low profile tires?)


I think for the next big update both of these cars need a complete looking over.


Also the Senna's sounds are much quieter than most other cars but I think that was previously reported.”

End Report

PN 2304 was created just 1 or 2 updates away from the release candidate for the 1.5 update. At this point. At this point the cars had received at least 1 more update.

Start Report

“I don't know what changed, but the McLaren Senna feels a little bit better from when I drove it last. It feels a lot more natural than it did, and only slightly on the understeery side.


Still feels a little funky in a extreme slide though. At some point the steering wheel kind locks up? Like the FFB becomes heavy and just stops the wheel from flowing through your hands? (Almost feels like the car bottoms out, or the tire deforms to the point the rim hits the asphalt?)


It's very odd but still an improvement. Will try the Brabham too...


So that dynamic I talked about before is still there. The Senna is very Anti Slide geared for high speed tracks, the Brabham feels the exact opposite and better on slower tracks because of it.


The Brabham gets into a lot of these low speed, lazy slides, almost like it's on bias ply tires? It feels like Presso's Birdcage for AC where the fastest way to drive in the low speed corners is to put the car into this gentle slide until the areo straightens thing's out... (and then she gone, like a Atomic Supersonic Steam Train...)


I also tried the ZO6 and I didn't notice that penduluming effect in motion. So, that's good!


The BMW 2002 feels a lot easier to drive consistently. (Still hoping it will get some friends in the future.)”

End Report

As you can see my reports are pretty consistent between updates.

The Senna is rather unstable when going slowly, feels like something is wrong with the differential in extreme slides (I.E. Hard to catch), and the FFB has something odd that happens during a slide.

The Brabham feels more stable, taking a set into corners and wanting to slide through them, I compare it to a dirt track car on Bias Ply Tires.

Now, between the end of the beta, and the Public release I did drive the cars a couple more times to see if anything changed, and it did not, as most work was focused on the RX content. However, after issuing this challenge, I decided to run the combo I suggested before reading any of your comments to try and give some extra feedback in case an update changed things, and I’m glad I did.

The Fundamental characteristics of these cars are still there.

The Senna is twitchy and kinda unpredictable, with a focus on maintaining downforce. The car still has a habit of becoming unrecoverable in extreme slides and seems much more prone to spinning on low speed turns. To make things worse, the FFB is still numb, although I did not have the issue with my FFB locking up as if my rim hit the asphalt mid slide.

The Brabham also by and large feels like I remember it. The car requires a slow in, fast out technique with you setting the car mid turn and powersliding out like a dirt car. It feels more agile than the Senna and many, many times more forgiving. However I will say that it felt less like Bias Ply tires this time around. Could be the track (Many more Mid speed corners than Adelaide or whatever track I used in my beta tests), could be an update, however, the car won’t let you get away with as long or as extreme of a slide as it did in the beta, IMO.


I am very interested to see what you guys say, and see if you agree with me.

 

If I may interject into the experiment...

For those who feel like there is a dead zone in the McLaren FFB (or just don't like it), how would you describe the feeling of the sausage curbs at Jerez track? Both brushing against them (in normal racing) and hitting them at more oblique angle (perhaps in a less elegant move).

The McLaren FFB is lighter by design than the Brabham. It is likely one of the lightest in the game, which makes sense as it is a zillion $ road vehicle, not a race car. But the feel of the sausage curbs, especially compared to the vibrations or feedback from the flat curbing, could be revealing.

Of course, feel free to compare to the Brabham, too, if you like.

Thanks

 

There aren't any huge curbs on Jerez being a Moto GP track, so I jumped over the Snetterton to Smash a few.

 

I wanted to keep it to the same track as your test....and they are large enough compared to the cars themselves.

The important thing is the results--if people can give their impressions.

 

Oh okay, when you say Sausage curves, I was thinking the big back breaking SOB's that send cars flying through the air

 

I also did the test with the two Hypercars, and this is how I see it.

The McLaren feels a little wobbly through corners and seems to swing the rear a bit if you are to aggressive out of tight corners. It understeers a lot on stock setup with 10/10 TC, but if you reduce the TC down to 3/10 you can steer the car with the throttle quite well. Overall it seems quite light, with relatively low aero, and less grip than you'd expect because street tires. I did not notice a deadzone in the FFB as others mentioned.

The Brabham has way more aero and better tires, which makes it feel more on rails. The added downforce makes the car heavier, resulting in stronger FFB. Reducing TC down to 2/10 here makes the car turn out of corners very nicely, but without any wobble or a misbehaving rear end.

The main difference is that the McLaren is designed as a Street car, while the Brabham is a dedicated track day car, resulting in completele different experiences between tho two.

I did the test in the release version of the game, first thing after a complete reinstall I did today

 

Redid the test with the Beta installation. Brabham felt the same and did the same laptimes. McLaren felt actually better for some reason, but the problems were still there. It's like if there's either massive weight rearwards (which could explain why rear tyres overheat) or some inertia value set wrongly too high, meaning that when the back end goes, it just does not want to come back no matter what you do, and it's easy to become passenger of your own car. The difference was that the window of control was somehow a bit wider and you could push more, found 8 more tenths. But this meant I was not underdriving anymore, and kept overheating the rears until they just did not want to grip anymore and spun around just the same.

 

I remembered a video I watched when the Senna just came to the market, Chris Harris comparing it to the 650S GT3 with some insights on how the Senna handles:

 

Great video for the purposes here. Confirms what I was saying about road cars versus race cars and that @Gabriel "Pai" Legnini's complaints about understeer in his initial post were correct, but the conclusion of awful physics was not

And even if you bumped the power of the street car up so high it could match the lap time of the GT3 car, it wouldn't change the reality of the limitations of the street-legal tires and other compromises that road cars inherently deploy versus a true track machine (of which GT3s are among the least hard core).

Also, still awaiting any feedback on the Jerez sausage curbs (see post farther back)...

 

I'll like to thank the people that took a little time to jump in and try this. Mazdaspeed, Gevetter, Gabriel who tested both the main game and beta. I'm sure a couple other people tested it and didn't say anything, and I'm sure a couple other people will hop in with their own observations after this post as well.

However, I think between the 4 of us, 8 accounts in total. 3 from me (2 from pervious betas, 1 from main release) 2 from Gabriel (1 from his main game, 1 from the most recent beta.) 1 from everyone else (i assume from the main game)

All of us, despite differences in skill level, differences in hardware and equipment, and differences in driving style, where a able to report similar driving characteristics between both of the cars, the Senna and the Brabham.

The Senna being twitchy and unpredictable.
The Brabham being more planted and track focused.

I think it's safe to say, unless we get someone with a wildly different report, that AMS 2 does indeed carry over its driving physics between users. However, I do want to discuss some interesting notes between our responses.

Mazdaspeed mentioned in his report that he believed the McLaren Senna both wandered in the road and had a FFB dead zone. I do not know what wheel you are using Mazdaspeed, but I'm assuming it it gear driven at least partially, because I can remember thinking the same thing on my older thrustmaster t348 before moving to my Moza R5 DD. As Marc later mentioned, the FFB in this car is extremely light and kinda numb, so if you are using a gear driven wheel, you're most likely only feeling the strongest forces coming through the wheel. (If that makes sense)

Regardless, he definitely got some decent laptimes out of the cars, and he didn't seem to have as much as a issue with the tires overheating as me and Gabriel did. Thats 100% down to driving style I believe, because I like to grab a car by the neck, and swing it around like BamBam from the Flintstones. Thats flat out, NOT how you get speed out of these cars, you have to underdrive the hell out of them (like you are a man afraid of loosing millions of dollars if your crash it)

Gabriel by and large had the same experience as me. Shell shocked about how different these cars drove, he struggled to come to grips with the Senna's driving style as did I. He also makes similar points of comparison, talking about how it almost feels like Iracing's older tire models.

Like me, he felt on gut instinct there was something wrong with the car, and doubly so after driving the Brabham, which is much more in tune with I suspect both our driving styles.

Interestingly, when Gabriel drove the Senna again in the beta version of the game, he noted he had a much better time. Since the beta and the main game are currently aligned, I can only assume coming back to the car for the 2nd time while focused on the driving dynamics, he and the car started to click. Something I too have started to understand having partaken in this test too.

Finally, Gevatter who had just reinstalled AMS 2, by and large report the exact same behavior, just with less fanfare than the 3 of us, Myself. Gabriel and Mazda. I can assume either Gevetter is a more experienced driver, or is just jumping straight back into the game after a small hiatus, allowing him to adapt to these cars more quickly.

Now, at this point, I think it is best if we all focus on Marc Collins' request of investigating how the, Senna especially, reacts to curbs. I need to do some more testing of how the car reacts specifically to them, but I do have some opinion in general of the Senna...

My opinion on the matter has shifted just a little as I've driven more laps with the Senna.

As mentioned I have probably the exact opposite driving style to what is required to get the most out of the Senna, so I'm slowly adjusting myself to understanding it better. I've come to 2 major Epiphanes.

1. these street tires suck (compared to a racing tire)
2. The Senna's FFB is attempting to simulate a modern car in "SPORT MODE" hints the oddness that I've been feeling.

On point 1, These tires might be the same as the Brabham but the sidewall of the tire is a lot smaller because of the rims are bigger. So you just CANNOT lean on these tires at all. You will spin, you will wreck.

On point 2, I noted in my beta notes that the FFB felt like it locked up in a extreme slide. Having driven this car more, I think the game is attempting to simulate a modern car with one of those adaptive steering racks? (Which I assume the real Senna would have?)

I am very much in the mindset of Jeremy Clarkson of leave it in comfort mode because that's what gives you the most information of what the car is doing, but clearly thats not the case with this car. As a result, I've noticed the FFB stiffens up when the car starts to slide at medium to high speed. It doesn't feel like areo, it feels like a electric system is trying to stop the steering wheel from self correcting like you can in a drift car. Once you know its there, you can work around it, but it combined with the tires and the general numbness of the FFB in this car, it basically means if the car steps out aggressively you are doomed. You just can't get the wheel turned enough, fast enough to catch it.

Its very interesting, its like speed+yaw adjustable steering feel. The perks of a car that is likely smarter than I am. Lol