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WHERE IS LIFT OFF OVERSTEER????????????

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by florian ray, Mar 6, 2021.

  1. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    I tried it, and I think it actually suffers from a similar issue like Retro-F. Even with suspension and aero changes, you cant get it rotate well. I think its generally a **** car but whatever :)

    Anyway ... I tried to fiddle with LSD a bit, and like Retro-F, no matter what you do, it doesnt really react well. UNTIL , you get under about 75kmh. Its very odd, when you go faster, it udnersteers almost all the time, no matter the setup. Once you get the speed down and cross this threshold, it rotates incredibly almost. I dont know why this is, and I dont think i'll bother investigating anymore as its really uncomfortable.
     
  2. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    It sure rotates for me with a simple and modest front bar adjustment. If I bothered to spend more than 10 seconds thinking about the set-up, I am sure I could turn it into an undriveable LOOS mess ;) It already can't handle the crests of T1 and the last turn very well just from two or three clicks of one anti-roll bar whereas with the bars set to default, it consistently understeers. (Although it is a cup car, so may have limited set-up options compared to other cars.)

    Yes, this track has extreme scenarios that could "assist" LOOS, but the point was to demonstrate that you can easily dial the car from under steer to over steer.
     
  3. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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  4. oez

    oez Mayor of Long Beach Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    It is not necessarily valid. Other sims are not basis for criticism when discussing physics like this. Real life is. But even then you can’t argue that cars should do a thing, because road cars X, Y and Z do it. I’m not saying that you’re wrong and he’s right. It’s about confirmation bias, leaving out steps and making definitive statements. Well established sims doing thing X makes us look for evidence that AMS2 must be wrong, because it doesn’t do it.

    The reason liftoff oversteer vs rotation is important is, because the former does exist in AMS2. The latter is also there in some cars, but the reason that it’s so sought after might very well be a result of optimistic drivelines in sims past that exaggerate the effect in most cars. However the current driveline and/or tyre implementation might also falsely reduce rotation. This is largely what me and steelreserv are interested in monitoring. We are critical, but we can’t really do much more than to wait for Renato’s work. He’s been on it for months figuring drivelines out properly.

    Long Beach.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  5. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Oooh I just tried the G55 supercup at Brands Hatch indy.

    Yuh. This game has come a long way.

    So... who's enjoying the game atm?

    Make your time on this earth well served. I use the default and just drive it like its the last time the race team intend to use that tranny. Can't go wrong if you put preload to 50, then steering to 20, AND front ARB to one click down. Then... 150 viscous, raise pre to 60, and P/c to 74 and 45. And ride height 70 back 60 front for some reason. Blah blah lift off-under /oversteer. Its turnin!

    Oh! And camber at -2.5 and -1.9 for the rear.

    Something like that! Pretty good!

    If you're not playing this game right now, then I want you to seek professional help. Its too fun.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  6. Synaks

    Synaks Member

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    I'd like to propose a way to end the semantics debate, instead of saying ams2 lacks lift off oversteer, or saying it lacks off-throttle rotation(which I cannot find reference to outside of this forum). We should use "Throttle Steering". Throttle Steering - Safely Fast
     
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  7. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    OMG! Thank you!!! Many blessing upon you.
     
  8. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Let's just move on to some useful discussion of particular cars and set-ups...

    Hopefully both "aggrieved" parties have had their say about the semantics...I pray ;)
     
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  9. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    When you lift off, you don't just load up the front, you also unload the rear (I recall you said that the fronts gain grip but the rears don't lose grip - see below), but this can't happen (because the normal forces of all tyres will equal the car's weight). The magnitude of the lift determines the magnitude of the load transfer, and so the magnitude of that slip angle changes. This is varying levels of lift-off oversteer (but only when the rear slip angle exceeds the front) that Synaks was referring to.
    Back to the Skip Barber bit, any increased rotation due to load transfer will increase the rear slip angle, but it will not constitute oversteer until it exceeds the front slip angle. What I said at the time is repeated below.
    I think you're accusing me of back tracking when you either haven't read what I've said properly or have forgotten (and you did some backtracking of your own with the above excerpt!).

    Regarding convenience, I thought I was pretty clear, so I'll not elaborate.

    Long Beach?
     
  10. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    I want you to enjoy life. I really mean it.
     
  11. steelreserv

    steelreserv Steelcast27 Reiza Backer

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    "the front tires getting more grip relative to the rears"
    what do you think the word "relative" means?

    You're forgetting the context of your skip barber quote. That's why I keep bringing it up. You were using it to support the proposition that "Throttle Steering" increases rear wheel slip (and therefore can be categorized as LOOS). I was actually surprised you failed to delete the last sentence because it completely torpedoed your point of posting it in the first place. And now you keep saying that I said LOOS requires complete traction loss and I never said or implied that.
    My opinion of LOOS is and always has been strictly by the book and all the references cited. The reason why we are even having this conversation in the first place is you disagreed with me and all the sources I cited to include Throttle Steering in the LOOS category. You and Synaks then started bringing up load transfers and wheel slip to support it your argument. In no way shape of form am I backtracking.
     
  12. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Too rational. Theyre strangers. If they thought you had two heads it couldn't possibly impact your life.

    People heave heard it all - non sequitur, ad hominem , an argument from some kind of logical fallacy. etc like the common man fallacy or the argument from authority. Whatever.
     
  13. Synaks

    Synaks Member

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    I understand this has become personal, but I don't think continuing this argument is going to help anyone. Let's just agree to disagree on loo vs off throttle rotation and use throttle steering moving forward.
     
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  14. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    Read what you said more carefully! You said "getting more grip relative to the rears (not the rears losing grip) " - note the "not the rears losing grip", which is the bit that's wrong.

    You say you never said LOOS was total rear traction loss, but you said LOOS is the same as snap oversteer in one post, and that is total loss. You also said that LOOS is inextricably linked to snap oversteer somewhere as well, but equally true is that LOOS is inextricably linked to lift-off rotation (or the new term "Throttle steer"!) because you get the rotation first and then then oversteer.

    Please, can we move on and stop this bickering?

    Edit - it was this bit here
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  15. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Active Member

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    You forgot "Long Beach?" Is that where you live?!
     
  16. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    Please. i know I personally said I would just play the game, but I had a thought:

    this is why Ermin said he was not interested in talking about the game, etc - he didn't want to get caught up in the miniature of things. Who knows - the guy will probably play it again next year! lol yet here are some discussing it as if it won't change tomorrow or next week.

    Its borderline pathetic or stupid - I don't know the local phrases. And for gods sake - only about 10 people right now are into discussing it in this much depth. Its not becoming of smart minds like theirs.
     
  17. oez

    oez Mayor of Long Beach Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Yes
     
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  18. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I don't think it has become personal. Fortunately, everyone here has been mostly respectful. There are facts to be considered and debated, but at this stage, I think the rest of us can read the argumentation and draw our own conclusions. It isn't (or shouldn't be) a battle of opinions or feelings.
     
  19. Raceracerace

    Raceracerace Active Member

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    especially when everything will change in like x amount of weeks/months.
     
  20. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    The technical discussion will not change and is fact-based.

    We can have our opinions about how quickly or how well the cars in AMS 2 are evolving towards responding like their real-world counterparts--since the point of a simulation is to grasp for that result.

    Lots to experiment with and discuss in that regard...if anyone cares about getting the most out of AMS 2. I thought that's why we were all here...
     

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