Automobilista 2 June 2022 Development Update

With the GT1 and the CART cars this imbalance is intended as it is historically accurate.

Obviously the GT4 cars should have roughly the same pace, and I actually think the 570s gt4 is slower than reality because ams2 does not simulate the e-diffs and the electronic brake balance of the real car (unlike supposedly acc). 570s should be OP in wet races.

The real car is laden with ballast to keep races competitive.

 

I like the fact that Reiza is trying to match the performance to the real thing, like the Mclaren in GT1 that had already fallen behind alot by 98, the Sigma seems to be more competitive too in real life and so on, I think this is part of the charm if it is in single player, but in multiplayer competitive races BoP is a absolute must, and it should be in singleplayer too for who wants it.

 

I just tried the "flying F1" at Nords... tried with all open wheel cars (with modern aero... aka, from the 80s on), default set...none even got near to take off.

Maybe it's some car setting that you changed.

All of this cars are somewhere near to be RL accurate. But the issue is both the race format that you are doing and the own AMS2's limitations.

For example. Between all of these GT4 cars, if I would have to race in RL my choice would be the Porsche and it's only because it's the most reliable and simple to service from all of those (maybe the Ginetta is similar... never got even close to one nor have heard anyone talking about having real experience). Also, these cars are made to race endurance and have other things to worry about, as fuel consumption, tires wearing and overall components temperature.

At P1, the real life Ginetta do good races, but don't seems like winning material.. but the car probably delivers a good overall pace.

At Copa Classics, the RL Chevettes are fast, but not as reliable and you see a lot of them quitting the races while in top positions.

Other thing is that some cars in AMS2 came with not optimal default setups. One example is the Formula Classic Gen 3 that I recently beat the leaderboard record at Spa. Basically all the top times were made by M1 or even M3... the fastest M2 was a couple of seconds (maybe even more) behind the WR... so I got the M2, dive into it's setups and set 0:00.261 faster than the former leader and more than 3s faster than the, now, second faster M2.

What I see in simracing overall, since my days on virtual leagues for rFactor 1, is that most drivers, specially the more competitive ones, don't waste time trying to really understand all the cars on grid... usually they chose the model that other fast lads are using and that is it.

But, yeah... I really doubt that people are using endurance cars only for endurance, not to leaderboard or 5 laps sprints... nor I doubt that folks drive the Chevette and Metalmoro cars as they could thorn apart just for daring simple kerbs at a little faster speeds. Yeah... I already told that the damage model of AMS2 (as most of the other sims) is considerably limited, ain't I?

EDIT: With the Formula Classic, after sat my record I tried to build a setup for the M1 (that is the predominant car on this leaderboard) and failed to do so. Everything indicates that the potential for the M2 going faster is bigger, but the default setup for the M1 is way better and easy to improve if the driver don't want to go deep on it. Probably there are other multiclass categories that things are working like that. Just for the record, at the majority of tracks I go faster in GT4 cars when using the Ginetta, not the McLaren. So, I'm also pretty sure that some cars will do better in specific tracks than others (as happens in RL a lot of times).

 

I think that we should keep the performance inequalities if they're realistic (eg the Reynard-Honda or the Merc GT1) but also give an option to BOP fields for single as well as multiplayer races, something like how AC does it with Content Manager could work, so if you want a fair field you can get a fair field but if you want to tear the field apart in the dominant car of the class you can do that too

 

The alternative solution would be to allow the server config to store restrictor/balast per car for the participating models. That way the realistic setting is available, but it's also possible to get the cars match up for races where BOP should be included (such as leagues).

I'm sure the community would quickly get the values right-ish, as it's the case with real world BOP too

 

Ballasts would be a good thing. Both with rFactor and RACE07 my online leagues used this system and the results were always positive.

I will always be in favor to give players more options and let them chose what pleases them the most.

 

Heard some beta person say that they don't get all the content at once so idk

 

its just numbers, as example.
As beta user i would never release the true numbers.
This is Renato's part
But was not the essence of the original message.
Its about the crazy hype some naive minds generate for some minor things forgetting about the major things they already own.
And if they got their breadcrumbs at the end they start the next hype

 

As alfa user I can tell you all the exactly numbers. In this new update we will receive exactly

 

I don't know where you all get this from, but the performance differences in GT1 certainly aren't realistic. In game the Porsche and the Merc are very close and it is track dependant which is faster, while the McLaren seems to be about a second-or-so off, while in reality the Porsche was generally off about a second in qualifying and 0.5 seconds in racetrim due to their tyres while the McLaren was anything from 2-7 seconds off the pace.

And don't even start with Le Mans, as Le Mans had different regulations to the FIA GT series, in case you ever wondered why the Porsche were so competitive there: They were allowed a bigger restrictor on their turbo engine and were allowed ABS and traction control. So different in fact that Mercedes even used a cross-plane 6.0l engine compared to the plat-plane 5.0l engine in the FIA GT series.

Which leads me to a point: Right now the GT1 cars ingame are a weird mix between FIA GT1 and Le Mans configuration, I will add some pictures to this to compare for the aerodynamics part and some youtube links.
1. The aerodynamics are how they ran at Le Mans but in the FIA series all of the cars used additional front aero flicks (as seen on the pictures) and the Porsche even used a completely different front wing. And that is not a late developement of the car or anything, as even the very first black and gold Porsche GT1 test car had that bigger front wing. What we have in the game was purely for Le Mans, which is not the version these cars represent in the game as they don't have ABS or traction control allowed and the Merc doesn't have the paddle shifters they used at Le Mans as they were removed to save 5-6kg. Exception is the McLaren which seems to be not be the Le Mans version but still wtihout front winglets.

2. The engine power for the Porsche GT1 is very open and clearly communicated to be 550hp (not bhp) in the FIA GT configuration several times by test drivers, Porsche and even Norbert Singer himself. So I dont know why the car in game has 569bhp other than for BoP reasons, if that is the case I am totally ok with it. The McLaren was also around 600hp in reality.

3. The sound of the Merc is the 6.0l cross-plane engine from Le Mans, not the the 5.0l flat-plane it actually has in-game and sounds completely different. Will leave some links for that if I can find it.

4. The weights are off a bit as well, but I don't know exactly by how much or for what reason, I just know the Porsche was at 940kg with an empty tank and the McLaren was 915kg while ingame they are 1052kg and 1042kg respectively, which doesn't match the difference. Might be for BoP reasons as well, if so that is fine.

So I am curious to see what they do should the teased Nissan R390 GT1 come, as that car only ever raced at Le Mans with a bigger restrictor, ABS and traction control.

And btw I didn't research this now specifically for the game, just for myself in my free time in the last few years but I thought this was a good time to sum it up and write it down, maybe something more useful gets done with it than I ever could myself.

Links:
Porsche Test car with the bigger front wing:

Norbert Singer about the 550hp:

Merc FIA engine sound:

Merc Le Mans engine sound:

The last picture is nice to get an overview, as it shows the 2 Mercs with 2 different front flicks as well as the 2 works Porsche with 2 different front flicks and the McLaren with the front flicks.

 

Someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the GT1 car models are from PC2. could be they weren't allowed to change them due to licensing. pure speculation on my part

 

Nope they are not and their specs have already been changed more than once.

Not sure if the V12 can technically be defined as a cross plane as there is no cross on a V12 where cylinders are staggered evenly in their leverages by 60 degrees not 90 or 180 as in the V8s respectively called cross or flat plane.
Anyway it is the 5.0 V8 that was used in 98 for the whole season by the factory team in view of Le Mans and its reliability not the 6.0 V12. By the way the privateers still retained the V12 version of the car at least before Le Mans installed in the same 98 chassis/aero. I believe after Le Mans or anytway at some point through the season, Merc decided to give them the same 98 specs as the factory.
The only onboard that I can find is that of the 1999 version of the car using the same engine with increased displacement and honestly it does sound more like a cross plane V8 than a flat plane. You can check the difference in sound by looking at onboard footage of the Corvette C7 (cross plane) vs the C8 (flat plane). Even the commentator says it sounds like a big American V8

Would be useful to see what reference is there to say it was a flat plane


Also, as far as I know semi-auto (paddle) gearboxes weren't legal in 98 as only sequential were allowed, they became legal only in 99 with the change from GT to proto status of the class. If you have some references as to how/when Merc would have used a semi-auto in 1998 it would be interesting

I am all in with being consistent on whether the LM versions or the FIA GT are depicted but honestly I would not run after winglets and exterior aero as those changed anyway along the season and through different tracks. And if this was the criteria for GT1s then it should be applied to all other classes starting from F1s and it would be quite a can of worms to open.

 

I was only talking about the V8 engine, and they were using a 6 liter cross-plane version of the V8 for Le Mans, while they were using a 5 liter flat-plane version for the FIA GT championship.

The private teams were also not using the 98 chassis/aero at any point, they were in the 97 CLK GTR cars for the full season. Completely different car with the V12 engine. The factory teams were using the CLK GTR 97 for the first 2 races as well, then after Le Mans switched to the CLK LM 5.0l V8 cars.

Marc Webber: "For weight reasons we have abandoned the paddle shift we used at Le Mans. It saves us 5 to 6 kgs. And the advantage was so small it was better to have the weight. And it gives us blisters"
Source: Hockenheim 2nd qualifying session

Can also be seen in the video of the Le Mans engine I provided, where the sound difference between the Le Mans and FIA GT configuration can also be heard.

Not sure if you fully read my post before, but as it is suggested by the ruleset in game (no ABS, no traction control) and also as a slight indication the lack of Le Mans in the game at the moment, it is pretty clear to be the FIA GT championship depicted in AMS2. And for that the Porsche 911 GT1 was designed from the very beginning (as can be seen by the footage of the test car rollout) with a much bigger front wing, the additional winglets aside. Same goes for the Merc and the McLaren which had the front winglets on every track in the FIA GT series. So these cars raced with much more front downforce in the series that AMS2 is trying to replicate.

Now if the winglets are something that have to be considered I am not sure, but the very different front wing of the Porsche for sure.

 

This is really interesting. Where have you found that they ran a 6.0l V8 at Le Mans 98? I can't find any reference to a 6.0l version of the engine they used in the car, and the Le Mans results I can find, such as:
1998 24 Hours of Le Mans Results and Competitors
1998 24 Hours of Le Mans | Autopedia | Fandom
list it as a 5.0l V8. I have no idea where the information on those sites comes from though. I do agree that the engines in the videos you linked sound a little different, though maybe I'm not hearing as big a difference as you are. It sounds possible to me that they are just using more revs in sprint configuration. But anyway, I find this all very interesting, I love that car and hadn't heard of them using a different engine, just the old Sauber C9 derived 5.0l.

 

This article written at the time for example: Homestead Mercedes Preview "A decrease in engine displacement (by shortening the piston stroke) from six to five liters optimized the package in accordance with the FIA’s engine size-to-weight equivalency formula"
And also this official program: https://www.racingsportscars.com/covers/_Le_Mans-1998-06-07e.jpg
This site as well: Equipas inscritas de 1998

Most sites just use the widespread info they took years after from the FIA GT car.

 

Lets just hope that there will be a need for le mans spec GT1

 

Cool, thank you! I found this message board topic with some info that may interest you also, though probably nothing you don't know already. They do find a forum post from someone claiming to be the head designer on the CLK LM project that confirms a 90 degree crank at Le Mans and 180 degree everywhere else, and that the engine was basically the same otherwise (I don't think that means they didn't change from 6l to 5l though, I think he just meant major changes to the structure of the engine).

CLK LM engine confusion | M119 Engine

 

There has never been a 6.0 V8. There was a 5.0 in 1998 and a 5.7 in 1999. The 6.0 was the V12 from the previous season. The article is probably stumbling on its own words mixing the previous season (and start of 1998 if you are right) V12 with the new V8 which was 5.0 only.

 

I smell in the air that the next update will be huge