Automobilista 2 March 2023 Development Update

Yes, Madness engine is a strange animal. There is something arcade in the core of it which is actually the secret (I think) that runs so well on all sorts of PCs. Call me crazy and may be I'm the first guy on internet with opinion like this but I really like the looks of the original ams more than the ams2 and I prefer the feel of the current game (in this current state) more than the original. It is vice versa on everything you heard but this is just me. The style of the presentation of all the cars in ams2 is better than ams BUT the materials all look plastic. There is no metal, no rubber, no mesh, no cloth, no leather. Everything has this silicone like finish to it and the whole model is kinda washed out. In the original, car model looks sharp and materials looks way better. There is something in the Mad engine that don't allows the details of the model to really pop which again is probably the reason that makes it so good of a performer. There are a lot of scenarios when ams2 looks stunning but there is something like a filter layer on top of that which kinda washes out the details. And the story goes the same way in the sound department. No matter how much work you put in the sounds there is something like a filter that kinda flatten the peaks out and not allowing the sound to really pop and byte. And again there are moments when ams2 sounds brutal but still there is something in the engine that cuts the depth and the meat out. And yes I prefer the sounds of the original as well.

Overall Madness simplifies the small details which ends up sometimes in cutting from the character of the project and this decision is made in the name of better more simple performance in consoles and multiplatform projects. It just not like the motor engines which are 100% PC hardcore sim oriented.

This post is not bashing on neither of the games nor 1 vs 2. We was talking about the shortcomings of the Madness and this is the only reason to point these things out. In the end all these are very small details far away from make or break the sim. There is still road ahead of us and I'm sure things will only get better.

 

The filter is "You".

 

There is a lot of 'opinions' in sim racing but unfortunately without the technical understanding it really isn't possible to make an informed statement. What does it actually mean 'there's something arcade in the core'? Do you perhaps have access to the code to be able to judge the complexity of the 'system'? I mean, 'arcade' does imply there's no calculations going on under the hood, no complexity etc.

I think at some point we sim racers must recognise that we have no clue how all this magic works. Statements like 'it shouldn't be too difficult to do/create/fix X, Y or Z must be a punch in the face to people who work their %&§$ off to create such amazing pieces of software. One thing's for sure, it isn't easy. The arcade nonsense has worn off for sure, it's gotten old. There's no perfection in the industry, nowhere.

 

If someone wants to use audio samples of the real cars as source for the engine sounds, there will always - ALWAYS - be some kind of processing compared to the original in order to sanitize the sample enough for it to work well. In order to make the sounds "pop and byte", as you say, these are the alternatives:

1. Try to source better audio samples. In many cases for historic cars they have very few clips available, and recording a new sound is out of the question, which makes this alternative nearly impossible.
2. Sprinkle some effects on top of the existing samples to add extra character that was lost in the sanitization process. This includes but is not limited to adding processing such as distortion, enhancer, impulse responses…
3. Use an inauthentic audio sample, i.e. a sample from a different car, maybe with some polish using the same measures as in #2
4. Synthesize a sound instead of using samples.

On the topic of synthesizing audio, I have a wet dream that someone some day will spend the effort to generate engine sounds based on physical modeling, kind of the same level of ambition as the physics in the Madness Engine. One could even let this be an experiemental feature that used the processing power from an old abandoned GPU or something like that. Some games such as Live for Speed have done this physics-based engine sound synthesis before, and there are various tech demos out there:

…but such a task in the scope of a sim the size of AMS2 would be a HUGE task, so it remains a dream. The technology and knowledge is already there, but it requires a lot of effort compared to the possible advantages it has over using samples, and it also comes with its own drawbacks such as requiring more processing power.

 

There's this guy as well.

Just realised it's the same guy

 

First thing first english is not my native language so sometimes my statement may sound not that straight forward.
What I mean by that, I'm not talking about the work that Reiza done with it. I'm talking about when this engine was coded at first. I'm pretty sure when you are developing a game engine you have to focus in some areas more than others, you looking for the balance that gonna suits your needs best in the end. The stuff I did mention in my recent two posts are exactly the parts that came out kinda short for a hardcore simulation engine.
To be even more clear with my last post, open up a car of your choice in the showroom. Take a first look at the rims and the tyres. Then look at the body cage of the car, the steering wheel's grip, the seats. To me all this looks like a plastic, there is no separation of the "feel" for different materials graphic wise (no depth). If you have the original ams or ac installed on your system go there open a car in the showroom and look for the things mentioned above. Right now I'm looking into the Caterham 620R in ams just after a close look in ams2 and yes I absolutely stay behind my opinion. There is just another level of depth in the car model which makes things looks more real and natural. And again this is not because of Reiza putted the wrong work into the design. It is something that Madness just don't handle right.

 

I think both "Engine" videos involve the same source (guy).

I've played with the engine simulator, and it is interesting but, not sure how well something like that can integrate into Racing Sims without creating a bottleneck somewhere else. As the saying goes, "if it were easy, everyone would do it" seems to apply. It does raise the question of using such a system to create various sound samples, though.

 

It doesn't really matter in which language we don't understand the reality of games and software development. The Madness Engine certainly wasn't in a perfect state, no game engine is, but it certainly does everything you want from a full racing simulation engine. We didn't look at ACC and called it arcade when there was no triple screen and awful VR support, did we?

If you don't like textures in the showroom I just don't understand what's that got to do with the core, and even less why that is 'arcade'? What does that mean?
I think AMS2 is one of the best and most natural looking simulation games out there. (btw, I do not make the distinction between 'game' and 'sim', they're all video games across the board)

I played Trackmania, that's a full arcade game. There's no suspension travel, no torque curve, no damage, no slipstream, no tyre temps etc. In AMS2 if you damage your suspension with full damage on at some point you're going to lose a wheel even before you make it back to the pits.

All I'm saying is, we need to be a bit more humble and aware of the fact that most of us have no clue what it means to build something like AMS2 and we need to stop throwing around empty words with no meaning.

 

Why one of the first usages of this engine was in NFS games (Shift series) than? Why Reiza is the first true sim studio that tries to do something genuine with it more then decade since its apperence?
You're active member here, no way you didn't see the complains about AI behavior, bugs with tyres and setups in pits, bugs with the changing weather system, cars stepping out with 3000 rpm... the list goes on, and those are not even my words.
Let me give you a few more "empty words" from my own experience. 200hp cars breathing fire like rocketships, tyres smoke in no logical situation just "to look cool" type of thing. Going into the grass even with a rental kart with 15 km/h starts to throw grass patches around like you're driving some lawnmower, again for "the dramatic feel" of your crash. Touching the grass with an inch of your outside back tyre sends you in hell.
Now do you get the bigger picture of all this? Some may be leftovers before Reiza even touched this engine but those are the things like I told earlier that gives me the Codies game type of vibe. Dirt or something.

AMS2 is a very good looking game but far from natural in my eyes, which turns me back to my main point but it's enough.
Now I'm gonna stop here because this starts to sounds like I disrespect and I don't appreciate the devs work on the title which is really not the case. Posts like this have no place in a dev blog topic. I'm not here to bashing on people's hard work and passion.

 

He actually stated in his last video that he wants to natively implement the technology in racing sims if developers consent. He is still working on the full version of engine simulator, but once that's finished, he wants to help every dev team that wants to use his sound engine (at least to my understanding).

 

I don't want to argue and I'm saying this will all the respect, you're entitled to your opinion but it does not stand on solid ground. The Need for Speed: Shift series was not the same arcade style Need for Speed we all have in mind. Just to make that clear. That was part of the myth and the arcade nonsense around PC2 while the attention to detail and the depth of simulation was actually quite impressive.

All of the other points you want to make also have absolutely nothing to do with anything arcade. Fire from the exhaust might look spectacular in replays and it is indeed spectacular to see IRL, that has nothing to do with rockets, NASA or something. When your fuel/air mixture is too rich some of that might escape unburnt from the cylinder into the hot exhaust causing little explosions and yes also flames in your 200hp box.

I'm going to stop here as it is off-topic anyway.

 

The entire argument that when the engine is used for arcade games means it's arcade engine in principal. Game engine can allow developers to skip the long and difficult engine writing phase and focus on tailoring the actual experience instead. In other words, take Live For Speed, trim a lot of hardcore simulation out and here you go, here's arcade LFS

I don't know the exact Madness Engine capabilities but with underlying ISI physics Reiza investigated and seen potential to utilise ME as a proper sim.

Basically we don't know the details to determine whether ME is capable or not, clearly Reiza seen the potential that it's possible and since it's the first title actually digging deep to proper simulation so it's quite expected that some areas would not be 100% correct.

I hope Reiza have enough dev time to deal with those inaccuracies or imperfections before their budget runs out.

 

This sums up perfectly my point of view! I can not explain myself well and it starts to sound long, harsh and negative.
I'm almost sure that around 1.5 - 1.6 version we will have something very special in the face of ams2

 

Seriously guys are we saying that Madness Engine is arcade because it has roots in NFS which is ridiculously old? Don't everyone know what has been done with the first PC and then PC2?
Correspondingly, are you guys considering RF2 equal to RF1? I bet things have been developed/changed/upgraded over the course of the years or do you think developers have just been doing CTRL+C / CTRL+V all this time?
Are we still debating arcade and simcade rubbish when it has been already explained how the models inside ME are some of the most advanced?

 

It's already something very special. All that's to come is an encore

 

Madness engine is arcade becuz NFS Shift?
Oh boy i guess RF2 is arcade too The Grand Tour Game Will Use rFactor's Physics Engine

 

Haha, right.
And ACC is then arcade too, because its using UE4
Tell that the Kunos fans and they will tar and feather you

 

Fortnite could really use those upgraded car physics...
Someone at Epic doesn't understand how a handbrake works.

 

You all have it wrong...

San Andreas had the best car physics...

 

The last few posts are nothing but word twisters. Who said that madness is an arcade because of nfs except you? Who said that madness is an arcade engine at first place? You don't deserve answers you deserve questions.
Why ams2 official release was a bad start for the project?
Why all the hate back then?
Why it took almost three years for ams2 (after 1.0) to achieve "a mature status"?

Get real!