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AM2 -- My thoughts

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Micropitt, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Member

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    I don't understand the comparison either. So a while back, after driving AMS2 quite a bit, I thought I'd try PC2 just to see if I was right (the mind can play games, so wanted to be sure). Now I hadn't played PC2 for a while as I found it felt a bit odd, graphically beautiful, but odd. Straight away they felt like different games, AMS2 had a nice comfortable feeling (perhaps a little too comfortable) and PC2 still felt odd in comparison (still fun, of sorts, though). I think the main differentiator is the FFB, and in AMS2 it is almost as good as rF2 (where I do most of my league racing). Somehow, PC2 still feels ever so slightly better than AMS2 graphically, but the difference is small and you tend not to notice that while racing anyway. AMS2 easily beats rF2 graphically, though there are a few rF2 tracks that are plenty good enough, and S397 seem to be working on the eye candy of late.

    I think the criticism probably stems from us humans being quite tribal, so we tend to like what we like and criticise all else, even if it makes little sense. There are fanboys everywhere, even here!
     
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  2. Mahjik

    Mahjik Active Member

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    Quoted for the truth.

    What I'm referring to is "physics", not "FFB". I believe people are confusing "FFB" for "physics" which are NOT the same thing. SMS's direction for FFB is different than Reiza's. People can debate which they like better as it's all personal opinion, but the underlying physics are using the same engine so they share the same qualities. This is what people who say they find the two titles similar are saying.

    Also, as @Nolive721, depending on what FFB settings you are using on both titles, you can get them to feel pretty similar (but not exactly the same since there are changes by Reiza).
     
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  3. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Member

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    But we pretty much 'feel' the physics through the FFB. While there is some truth in what you say regarding the common physics engine, the parameters that the engine is given will determine its response to various inputs, so could react completely differently, even though the engine is the 'same'.
     
  4. Mahjik

    Mahjik Active Member

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    Yes and no.. In simple terms, if there is a calc in the game engine that says X + Y = Z, that is not going to change the "behavior" with different values. The equation doesn't change even though different values are being used. You will end up with a variation of behavior but the underlying way things happen won't change unless the equations change. This is why all of the sims built off the isiMotor platform all had the same underlying shortcomings no matter what the development teams put on top.

    I'm splitting hairs on purpose but that's what it comes down to. Sure, some people may not be able to feel those underlying similarities and some will. However, throwing different numbers into a calc engine doesn't necessarily transform it into something completely different so you shouldn't discount those that say they "feel some PC2 in AMS2" as they likely really do.
     
  5. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Member

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    Well, I don't really know how the Madness engine works, so how much it forces things to be done a certain way with little latitude, I can't say. It might be constraining, or it might be quite open, allowing either great variation due to the functions used having many coefficients, or may even allow the specification of your own mathematical model completely. Details of this are probably part of an NDA, so we'll more than likely never know.

    One thing though, Reiza did try the gMotor2 engine first when they did their rF2 cars (and tracks), so I guess they got a good idea regarding how each would influence their desired implementation path, and they made their choice.
     
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  6. SwaggerJacker

    SwaggerJacker Active Member Reiza Backer

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    The problem is that some of the YouTubers are still calling it PC2 but haven't driven the sim in over a month. Some since the drop of Early Access. Some of them admit as much. A lot of them don't really do their homework, and make uneducated statements usually negative about the game. Not sure if you're familiar with the YouTuber Jardier? He was one of the games' detractors, and he hadn't even driven it. I love the guy but that always stuck in my craw. He finally tried it and was like a kid at Christmas. He admitted he was wrong, but correctly stated that though there are some similarities, they are still very different. Especially the physics. Changing numbers can and does change the physics, but it's more complicated than that.
     
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  7. Mahjik

    Mahjik Active Member

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    This is a falsehood and Neils should really provide some clarity to his YT post. Neils was trying to demonstrate why different devs get different results with the same tire physics (disregarding everything else in a physics engine). A few things, he was most focused on the isiMotor engine as that is what he's familiar with and the Madness does work differently. However, when I say it's a falsehood, what I mean is the physics are based on calculations. Yes, the values that go into it can be different, but that creates a variation, not a completely different behavior.

    Take a piano for example. It has 7 octaves. A "C" in octave 1 (known as C1) sounds lower than a "C" in octave 7 (C7). However, they are both "C", just a variation of C.

    With that, unless you change the actual calculation, then you just have a variation of the calculation. Some people are sensitive enough to feel what the physics engine is doing regardless of the variation of the "values". Some aren't. This is what some of those YT'er's (including me) are saying. Those underlying behaviors are similar, and they should be. Just changing a few numbers doesn't remove that.

    However, we know that the SETA tire model works like tire manufacturers. i.e. they (Reiza) have to construct a tire. Within the SETA model, that tire will inherit certain behaviors that the tire model supports. i.e. flex, flat spots, scrubbing, heating, etc... There is also all the other calculations (aero, suspension, chassis, driveline, etc). I'm sure over time, Reiza will continue to diverge into their own direction but the whole point of using someone else's engine is that you don't have to do everything from scratch which means you natively inherit certain behaviors.
     
  8. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    I dont really agree with you here at all. We are probably typically talking exponents and scalar coefficients. Different values there can and will result in drastically different behavior. Ive not play PC2, so I can't vouch for how similar they are or aren't, but just because a particular tire model-based sim could theoretically have the same number variables its working with doesnt mean it will behave the same. You can make a certain variable have a large influence or no influence. Given that we are talking about a tire model, it's basically a matter of how many different variables are modeled. The more variables, the more room for divergence exists, but also a higher chance of getting it more accurate to real life.

    I dont know, I'm just a math guy... coefficients in a formula can make a huge difference.

    In any case, I am inclined to think that the game physics handle more or less how they want it to, regardless of any similarity or lack thereof to PC2.
     
  9. Mahjik

    Mahjik Active Member

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    So I'll give this example.

    In my race car, I may run a few different tires. They are all constructed differently, from different manufacturers. Even with the same "printed" tire sizes (say 245), the tires will vary in actual width almost a full inch in difference. The compounds are different, the chemistry is different, etc..

    However, it's not "different physics" when I go to drive them. There is a "variance" in how they behave but they have the same "characteristics". They have a slip angle at which they generate their max grip. It may be different for each tire, but there is a slip angle. There is a point at which grip falls off. It may be different for each tire, but it exists for each tire. The tires have an optimal pressure and/or temperature. It may be different for each tire, but it exists.

    The only thing that changes is the variance at when these things occur and the amount of window they occur within. I don't have to relearn how to drive just because of a new tire, I just need to understand/learn when the new parameters happen and adjust. So when I say that "different values don't change the physics", this is what I'm referring to... The underlying behavior is still there, but the windows for the behavior change. Unless you actually change the calculations, you don't alter the underlying behavior.

    Now, supplying wide variance of data can skew a scientific test in any form. If you have an equation and you put in for X say 10 and then put in 10,000,000,000 then yes things will be radically "different". To the point you can't tell the variance. However in my example above, the tire manufacturers are producing tires to beat one other. The parameters they are using are very close to the spec rules allows. Similarly, people trying to make realistic tires, their "data" is going to be similar and not widely different. Therefore you'll be adjusting to the "variance" within the same physics model but it's not an entirely new model.
     
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  10. Nolive721

    Nolive721 Member

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    Would Reiza have tied up with SMS if their madness engine was so bad?

    Did some people here actually look into PCARS1 FFB model adjustment available to the end user?

    I graduated as an automotive engineer 20yrs ago i can tell you i was pleased by what i was seeing there.

    I rate Reiza team management high enough to have balanced that out when they set their high level tech requirement to their devs group and plan workload and related budget to execute what we see today in AMS2

    To me SMS has executed a good bunch of cars in PC2 that has given the confidence to Reiza they had a sufficient base to create their AMS2 game as a proper SIM

    My 2p
     
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  11. RWB.3vil

    RWB.3vil Member

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    Broadbent does as always create a dismissive "review" then months later when its popular to do so make another "i was wrong" video about the title he previously dismissed.

    Take that youtuber with a grain of salt. He is there to make money, he is a business. Making contrarian videos gets views, as does" i like this sim now and here is why", videos.
     
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  12. lawgicau

    lawgicau Active Member

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    Or maybe he just didn't like it and he will change his mind after the game has developed?
    Plenty of people on here did the same thing and no one says conspiracy.
     
  13. Cully

    Cully Member Reiza Backer

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    Hes gone from a sim racing content creator to creator for anything with wheels, he follows the numbers lately.
    Used to be my go to guy, now my dont believe anything he says guy.
     
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  14. lawgicau

    lawgicau Active Member

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    It's possible but there are so many YouTube conspiracy theories these days it's ridiculous. There are plenty on YouTube for the wrong reasons, but not every popular YouTuber immediately can't be trusted.
     
  15. Micropitt

    Micropitt Well-Known Member

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    Every review, regardless who does it, is subjective. The only review you should trust is your own ;-)
     
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  16. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Member

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    AMS2 and PCars2 are two different game using the same engine, the only thing that is some how similar are the graphics, the driving feeling is as different as any 2 other different game. The same applies to PCars and PCars2, same engine but totally different driving feeling.
    Some will like both, some will like one of them, some will not like any of those two, the only way to know is trying them and enjoy or not, does not matter what every body else enjoy.
     
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  17. steelreserv

    steelreserv Active Member

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    To me, AMS2 drives and feels completely different. You feel connected to the car and the road. You can drive more and more on the edge as you get familiar with each car and track. PC2, not so much. I felt like you had to rely on muscle memory more often. It was sterile and somewhat unforgiving.

    If its the same engine, it definitely doesn’t feel like it.
     
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  18. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Member

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    We know it is the same engine,
     
  19. Jake Fangio

    Jake Fangio New Member

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    I don't follow broadbent anymore. He's turned his channel into a pure entertainment thing. He's not relevant as a sim comentator anymore. I watched him review an earlier build,and he just jumped straight into s race at Adalaide and started criticizing it. After that I unsubbed.
     
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  20. OlaN

    OlaN Member

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    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
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