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AMS' "Virtual Throttle" - Any explanation for it's behavior?

Discussion in 'Automobilista - General Discussion' started by Spin, Jan 12, 2020.

  1. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    I went to press ctrl-f to see the framerates but by accident I pressed ctrl-d. Suddenly, a bunch of information popped up that I've never seen before (see pic):
    GRAB_000.jpg

    When I checked the "virtual throttle," I saw some seemingly strange numbers. As I was slowly increasing the throttle while slowly accelerating, the virtual throttle matched my throttle inputs accordingly, however, I noticed 2 things that not only seemed very strange but perfectly matches 2 things that I've long said. I've often said the following 2 things:

    1) When in neutral (or clutch pressed in) and revving the engine, the engine often responds in a seemingly overly sensitive way. For example, you'll be at 10% throttle, suddenly bring the throttle to 20% and the engine revs shoot up as if you gave the engine wayyy more throttle than 20%.

    "Virtual throttle" behaves EXACTLY like what I described above: if I'm at 10% throttle, and suddenly bring the throttle to 20%, the "virtual throttle" will suddenly spike to very, very high amounts of throttle like 70%, 80%, 90% instead of 20% throttle.

    2) Often, during wheelspin/oversteer, the wheelspin and engine revs will skyrocket so aggressively and abruptly as if you suddenly smashed the throttle down or as if the engine suddenly received a humongous torque spike or as if the car suddenly magically gained 2,000 hp.

    "Virtual throttle" behaves EXACTLY like what I described above: go around a tight hairpin, get a nice, quick slide on to help straighten the car out on exit and watch the "virtual throttle" when the rear-end kicks out. Even though you may be pressing the throttle down only at 30%, the virtual throttle will shoot up to 80% or 90% and the revs/wheelspin will perfectly act in accordance with the "virtual throttle." The revs/wheelspin abruptly skyrocket in perfect collaboration with the "virtual throttle" therefore the revs/wheelspin behave as if there's a humongous torque spike or as if you suddenly smashed the throttle down - which is exactly how I've been always describing this behavior.



    AMS' "virtual throttle" absolutely, 100% perfectly matches what I've been saying about engine revs & wheelspin/oversteer behavior. I've always said it's as if the engine suddenly outputs wayyyy more power during those times - now, I discover this "virtual throttle" telemetry and, low & behold, it 100% exactly matches what I've been trying to say for so long.

    This leads me to 2 initial questions: What is "virtual throttle" referring to? Why does "virtual throttle" sometimes abruptly increase to a wayyy higher value than the throttle the driver is actually applying?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  2. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Sorry to disappoint you, @Spin, but I believe the virtual throttle is simply part of the way Reiza implemented turbo modelling. The turbo effect is additional "virtual" throttle in whatever ranges the turbo would provide. Normal throttle mapping (digital/simulated) still applies, which is often done very badly on a lot of mod cars.

    So, if a car has a hugely powerful turbo, you will get incredible wheelspin and oversteer (assuming RWD) very suddenly as the boost arrives. Even a small turbo can induce more than expected.

    Maybe someone else with more knowledge will reply, but I think this is not a source of evidence about abnormal behaviour.

    As you know, in neutral, you would not have to press anywhere near 100% throttle to get the engine to 100% (red line). Do some mods have a pedal that is too sensitive? Yes. Not a flaw in the engine, just in the throttle mapping for that car. Clutch behaviour is usually the worst for implausible mappings.

    During a spin, assuming you are very careful to not add more throttle in the moment of excitement, the rpm rise comes from the driven wheels suddenly losing grip due to the spin. Unless you back off the throttle precisely to compensate, more often than not the result will be additional loss of traction due to throttle still being applied at the same time as the tires have already lost lateral grip due to the original spin. Would badly simulated (overly sensitive) throttle response make task more complicated than it should be?--of course.

    Does the virtual throttle do a decent job of simulating the effects of a turbo without the burden of a super-complex turbo modelling construct. In my opinion, yes. Much better than the none as we have in other sims.
     
  3. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    I see, so the virtual throttle doesn't mean anything if a car doesn't have a turbo? Are you sure? Why is there still virtual throttle being generated in a non-turbo car? Why does the virtual-throttle correlate nicely with my throttle inputs (besides, generally speaking, the scenarios I described in my OP)? Why does the virtual throttle spike at the exact same time as the vehicle's applied power seems to spike (relative to the actual throttle the driver applies?

    :rolleyes: There's no need to be patronizing. I've been racing sims as well as in real-life for 20 years. I know what oversteer is, how to control it, how a vehicle acts/reacts when it's in that state, etc. I've gotten road cars, highly modded road cars, open-wheelers, and other racecars sideways thousands of times in real life and sims.

    BTW, you're explanation is partially incorrect. You can modulate and play with lessening and adding more throttle during oversteer, I've done it a thousand times in real life racecars, sims, and seen it a million times in F2000, F3, F1, etc. etc.

    Not backing off the throttle doesn't always mean additional loss of grip in real life and other sims (NK Pro is great at this). As the tyre still maintains some grip and sort of grip, ungrip. grip, ungrip, you can keep the throttle in a constant state and sometimes even add more while you're in this state of wheelspin where there's too much tyre bite to fully light up the tyres.

    Even if you do loose additional traction, the wheelspin/RPMs should not aprubtly light up as if you suddenly gained 2,000 hp or smashed the throttle to the floor or as if the tyre literally lost 100% grip, there should still be somewhat grip & control during wheelspin. There should still be tyre grip/load that prevents the engine RPMs & wheelspin from so abruptly skyrocketing.


    Anyways, I was posting more about this "virtual throttle" thing rather than having a long debate about physics.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  4. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Precisely. That's not what I feel or experience in AMS, even with insane old giant turbo F1 cars.
     
  5. Richard Wilks

    Richard Wilks New Member

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    Say what again about wheelspin Spinelli? Tell that to Chris Harris here:




    You see, the part you dont understand is that not all race cars are the same. And you love to do blank statements over any car. I don't get why are you here anyways, if NK Pro is so good, why don't you play that?...
     
  6. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    We must be playing different games then.

    Of course you can have snaps like that but it's extremely rare compared to how often it doesn't do that. Real-life racing or even just watching of any vehicle of any class of any year in motoring history will prove this. I can post 1000x more videos showing my view than the snaps you show because those snaps you show are uncommon compared to controllable wheelspin like you see happen 100s of times in a single real-life event. And, yes, it is a blanket statement because it is fundamental physics, you can see this fundamental behavior from karts to road cars to formula trucks to f1s.

    Anyways, my intention was not for an argument about correct physics VS incorrect, I was just posting about the "virtual throttle" because it goes wild and raises spectacularly by sheer coincidence (apparently) to whenever the in-game throttle seems to behave spectacularly overly-aggressive.
     
  7. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Try sliding the F-Trucks with their giant turbos. In all seriousness, if you cannot consistently and fairly easily steer those trucks with the throttle, then there is something seriously out of whack with your wheel set-up. I never really used them until quite recently. A bizarrely fun experience, but definitely one of the easiest vehicles to drift in AMS. Just as a comparison point that is much easier to deal with than an F3!
     

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