1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

AMS2 vs AMS1 Physics

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by JS1, Aug 2, 2020.

  1. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    332
    Likes Received:
    174
    I think people forget that real cars arent that difficult to drive. Racing on the limit should be a challenge, but real cars behave according to real laws of physics which are, to most of us at least, fairly intuitive. Being better at it than the next guy is the challenge, and being good enough at it to beat world class racers is a whole different story. But cars should be recoverable on and around the limit to at least some extent. I think thats why I love AMS2 so much. You really can dance with the car.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 4
  2. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Messages:
    3,029
    Likes Received:
    18,474
    Since I have some inside info in this topic I thought I´d add some relevant info to the discussion :p

    The aero / chassis / suspension / engine physics models are 90% the same as what they were in AMS1 - they were afterall branched out of the same original codebase. Brakes is likewise very similar since our more recent latest developments, leaving only tyre and driveline models in Madness as significantly different (or a complete departure) from the models in AMS1.

    So far, the most significant improvements in AMS2 physics development have come from either fixing errors in the "translation" of one physics engine to another where these differences are, or from actually getting a better handle on the features of these new models. How far along we are in that process is hard to say, and how well the resulting experience stack up against the old one is obviously a topic that is open for debate and highly subjective to taste - I´m personally very happy with the new engine but I´m also aware we´re still learning how to get the best of it, and that whatever we are doing now may seem rough looking back one year or even six months from now,

    Handling-wise the main difference is the tyre model - AMS1 had the advantage of having a highly parametrized Pacejka model, which was simpler but allowed a lot of room for "crafting" the handling by finetuning those parameters; the STM we have in AMS2 is a more intrinsic model and while there are many parameters to adjust the tyre construction, they´re intertwined in a way that demands a better understanding of why a given tyre may not be producing enough longitudinal slip (or whatever it is that may need adjusting) to get that result without breaking anything else on the tyre.

    The other side of the coin is that AMS2 tyres are ultimately more advanced and since more of its dynamics are hardcoded within the model they´re ultimately more consistent, whereas the extra freedom for crafting "bespoke" tyres in AMS1 often allowed for flaws or inconsistencies in other parts of the physics to go by unnoticed - this ultimately has led to the aero, suspension, chassis physics as well as the tyres themselves being a bit more refined in AMS2.

    At this stage I personally find the results similar for many cars present in both games so I´ve found a bit surprising how some people have found the transition so jarring - there´s most likely an FFB component to that (with current AMS2 profile being a lot less saturated than AMS1), and an element of taste with some being bery sensitive to and prefering AMS1 peakier tyres relative to slightly more forgiving counterparts in AMS2, even though on the balance they could very well be equidistant from what "real" is :)

    Wherever you currently land in that argument, the important thing is that as with everything else in the game, AMS2 physics will still continue to evolve through it´s shelf life just like it did with AMS1 - the physics are what they are at the moment because that´s where we are landing with them in an ongoing development process that won´t end any time soon :)
     
    • Informative Informative x 17
    • Like Like x 7
    • Winner Winner x 2
  3. Marius H

    Marius H Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2016
    Messages:
    2,332
    Likes Received:
    1,058
    Great read! Love it. While AMS 1 have its moments. AMS 2 also have its moments. I love some of the stuff in AMS 1. Specially some of the FFB-effects. Like the wobble. But AMS 2 is under the hood a better package. Only need refinement and proper love till the end. It's like a baby and it need to reach adulthood.

    By the way if you guys ever going to do a Rally Sim. 2025 or so. Don't forget to hire Workerbee. He solely transformed RBR into a masterpiece. I am so curious how AMS 2 will feel when it's 'completed'. And wonder if you ever do a rally sim. Richard Burns Rally needs a worthy successor.

    Sorry for offtopic.
     
  4. Jugulador

    Jugulador Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    90
    Fí... a física tá show. AMS2 é um dos poucos jogos onde consegui uma dirigibilidade decente pra carros tração dianteira. Minha experiência pessoal é a Formula Mil, onde corri de Celtinha com desempenho levemente parecido com o Golzinho da Copa Classic B. Conto nos dedos modelos FWD coerentes... até a Kunos (consagrada pelos haters de AMS2) falhou em entregar algo que preste com aqueles Alfa e o Abarth 500 (que eu pude experimentar o modelo real de corrida, que é exatamente o que tem em AC, além de que tive por alguns anos o Fiat 500 parecido com o do jogo deles, mas esse nunca coloquei em pista pra saber como se comporta) e só fui experimentar física coerente desse tipo de carro em alguns poucos mods, como o Fulvia e o Primera.

    PS: E sou no AMS2 o piloto de Golzinho mais rápido do mundo... podem checar os recordes online... digo que os caras estão andando devagar... ai os carros ficam mesmo do jeito que tão falando. E respondi em português pra não ficar batendo tambor pra louco... escrevi só pra vc entender, não pros trolls.

    Abração!
     
  5. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,823
    Likes Received:
    868
    It really is?
    Don't take this as an attack on your product, i'm overall pretty happy with AMS2, but here some things, that crack me up personally, when it comes to the surprise of compared behaviour in driving feel of both sims. (FFB is taken out of the equasion completely, i mostly drive with audio-visual hints, FFB is just an immersion extension for me)

    So here we go, the examples, that i have so far, why AMS2 can feel very uncomfortable/incomprehensible sometimes, compared to AMS1, driving wise (most things, that i would find to be different, are diff and tyre related):

    F-Retro: The BT44, which is obviously the design, the AMS1 car was aiming for, drives fundamentally different in both sims.
    The AMS1 Retro turns in a lot more agile, while the AMS2 one feels sluggish and restricting to front bite. especially in slow corners with LSD. It somewhat forces you to add more and more steering angle, because trailbraking makes it even worse. Then you apply throttle and the car becomes nervous. It feels, like the diff is broken and you should come into the pits immediately to call it a day.
    Also over crests, dips and bumps, the AMS1 F-Retro is controlable totally fine, while the AMS2 one still wants to take away all of the steering authority, when/until regaining grip.

    Example F-Vintage: Tyres are heating up and have a hard time, to get rid of temperature. Brakes are heating up the tyres by quite a large bit, no matter, what countermeasures are taken into consideration and pressures are climbing a lot, these cars becomes pretty un-enjoyable to drive, then.
    Also, they communitcate a lot less of depth in driving behaviour, i'm not talking in FFB terms here, i'm talking in "car want's to understeer or get lose terms". It feels less "dynamic" than AMS1. I have once described it on an example at Tamburello Imola 70s Historic. The AMS1 car basically communicates all its needs (still no FFB talk), while the AMS2 car is delivering a less "refined" sensation of what the car does.

    Another thing, that isn't an AMS1/2 comparison by car, but by feel of approaching the limit: The Ginetta G55 Cup car slides suspiciously much in slower sections and is often faster (like the F-Retro) when driven with scrubbing off speed while sliding into corners instead of driving it clean with slight brake application. Weight transfer and braking, to load up the fronts often is more unsatisfying, than just "yeet" it into corners and give'em hell. Trying this with the Boxer Cup in AMS1 (totally different car, i know, but still), for example would punish you big time, because overdriving (which, in my opinion, makes sense).

    It can also work the opposite way, like the Stock Car Brasil 2020, which i think, is just brilliant and feels loved. This class just wants you to use proper driving abilities and makes sense.
    Also SC2019 feels pretty similar to the AMS1 2017 version, but with more slow cornering rotation, which can be strange sometimes.

    Also the new Formula V10 gen 1 is feeling, as if it has more "depth" in behaviour and agility, than the gen 2, for example.

    This has all to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, but AMS1 is my most played sim, next to GTR2, i could recall driving behaviour and approaches of being on decent pace with many vehicles of these sims, if somebody would tear me from sleep in the middle of the night. I can't help but compare it to AMS2 and i find some things, that leave me scratching my head sometimes, especially when it comes to tyres and differential.^^

    But still: Thanks for your work, i'm convinced you deliver the best, you possibly can archieve! :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. BrunoB

    BrunoB Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    85
    Thank you @Crimson - informative and inspirering comment.:)
    Hehe I have never had AMS1 but from both Simionis (very informative) comment above and now yours I should maybe invest in AMS1 too :p

    In AMS2 Im mainly loving the F-Reiza because as my imagination tells me this is exactly as some kind of semi-modern high powered formula car should behave.
    Remark: Lots of years ago when I had hair on my head I was driving FF1600 for some time - so Im not completely without knowledge from RL formulas.

    The only extremely tiny issue I have with the F-Reizas behaviour is that in some sharper highspeed "pirouette" corners (= more than 100 degrees curvature) then exactly midcorner the car goes from oversteer to rather sudden understeer eventhough the throttle pressure is complete steady/stable.
    My intuition says this is not correct - eventhough I have learned to take my precautions so I can handle it when it happens.;)
    It has nothing to do with the diff setttings because as said the car is not going from power to coast state via the throttle handling.
    But again its a tiny issue because Im in love with this car.:p

    ByTheWay: Example of such "pirouette" corners is the 2nd (Druids) and specially the 4th (Surtees) corner on Brands Hatch GP.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  7. JS1

    JS1 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    5
    In the gameplay settings i have driving assists off which greys out all the driving assist options, but in the car tuning page i saw the option on again so i turned it down to the lowest number it would allow which is 1%---it would not go to 0%.(going to 100% as you suggest does seem to have helped a fair bit(still think there is too much grip though) thanks for the heads up)

    Don't understand why you would have a game setting that disables driving assists then allow adjustment in the tuning section---just get rid of the gameplay driving assist option and just allow this setting to be turned on and off in each individual cars tuning section.

    Still way too hard to lock up the brakes and a lack of feel when doing so, and way too easy to save slides i feel.

    Kicking back gears way too fast in the F1 V10 car i was just sampling should cause the back end to kick out especially if you happen to start turning at the same time---i never feel like this is going to occur.

    When all the reviews are raving on about how good it feels to be able to save the back end you know you have gone too far in the conservative direction----once again i am not saying a difficult handling sim is a better sim or more realistic but when newbies can save the back end like a pro without much practice you know something isn't right.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  8. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Messages:
    3,029
    Likes Received:
    18,474
    While I agree in parts and disagree in others, I don´t think any of that fundamentally contradicts what I said ;) As a fast driver you´re more sensitive to certain handling nuances coming from the tyres, while I tend to look it from an overall perspective, and the overall is not very different (with a few notable exceptions).

    One thing that´s worth distinguishing is what´s being communicated, vs what is actually happening - here both the FFB saturation and the tyre´s relative sharpness from AMS1 will be a factor in "communicating" what the tyre is doing through the FFB, particularly for those on a G2X wheel or similar.

    Ultimately a lot of what you describe comes down to tyres and the fact they´re still under development - I´d agree the F-Retro tyres as a whole is a bit more understeery and edgier than it should be and thus more likely to snap than the AMS1 equivalent, but you may notice that has been gradually improving since the first beta release as I figure out what can be reasonably adjusted in it. I could easily add 5mm of front tire tread and kill that understeer, and in AMS1 we´d probably just do the equivalent which would be just adding more lat CoF to the front tyres (within the thresholds of reason) - but in AMS2 that´s a hack that would probably have ill side effects elsewhere, so I need to understand where in the construction the understeer is coming from.. Mind you despiste the fundamental engine differences in PMotor´s relative tweakable tyre model, it was not a very different story with the original F-Retro development process - that car was first released in GSC2013 and that was not the car that you drive in AMS1 now, even though the fundamentals have remained mostly the same.

    Similar story with the G55 - it was a lot more slidish in initial release than it is in the current beta. Should it be a big tighter still? Possibly, but I need to work on the whole GT4 tyre construction which shares components with other similar tyres in a way that will keep them consistent relative to each other.

    Fun fact: the GT4 tyre on the G55 which seems slidish shares a lot of its construction with the Stock 2020 tyre that you find just right - devil is in the details :)

    One thing I can assure is that there is no car that receives more love than the other - the physics like most of other fronts in the game is developed in a holistic manner, rather than focused on the latest release. If something is found to be off or worth a revision, then all tyres from all cars get revised, and that is a process that we´ve gone through several times since the Beta release. That may slow down things a bit but means the whole physics evolve in a consistent manner, even if there are still cars that may seem more "right" than others.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 11
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. Scraper

    Scraper Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    344
    Just to chip in briefly regarding the AMS1 v AMS2 topic, I find that some AMS2 cars are "easier" to drive because the characteristics of the cars are more noticeable (which is a good thing) and therefore I can interpret my steering wheel feedback accordingly.

    The Copa Fusca and Hot Fusca, for example, are improved in this regard from the AMS1 versions. Unless it's my imagination, I detect lift-off oversteer, power-on understeer and tremendous traction when exiting corners (more so with the Hot Fusca) much more readily through the wheel in AMS2. All of which means adjusting my driving lines and technique (fun!) for a particular vehicle, something that has been at the core of Reiza's philosophy all the way back to Game Stock Car.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. SRGP

    SRGP Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    38
    In my humble opinion one key factor that leads to the inconsistancy feeling is the simple fact AMS1 is dictating the Steering Range per car whereas AMS2 is still relying on the decade old rF1 technique of one unique fixed Steering Range (from the steering wheel drivers settings) for all the cars...
    I hope this can be modernized :hurrayreiza:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Jugulador

    Jugulador Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    90
    Maybe you were easy on the real car, but in AMS2 are braking (and braking harder) more inside the corners, so the initial oversteer is caused by chassis balance, not by the differential.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. BrunoB

    BrunoB Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    85
    @Jug
    Thanks for at least trying to comment on this.:)
    But if I understand you right then you suppose Im braking in some way.
    If thats what you suppose then Im absolutely not braking in such situations.;)
    In not touching brakes after entering corners in such situations.
    No Im trying to keep the car completely on the edge of the tires adhesion to tarmac - with constant/steady pressure on the throttle.
    Its only when the car changes to understeering and the front begins to slide out that I have to ease off on the throttle.
    Intuitively (and by trying to remember old days) I would think that the rear would give up first in such situations - and the car would get into slightly more oversteering before I does correct it.
    But no :mad:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. neal

    neal Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    52
    Unless I've got this wrong, @BrunoB I disagree with what you say. If you are maintaining an arc through a turn under the same throttle pressure, then there is no change to the velocity which would be needed in order to induce a change in grip.
     
    • Dislike Dislike x 2
  14. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,823
    Likes Received:
    868
    Thanks for this detailed reply!
    Yes, the F-Retro class has improved a lot, not gonna lie and i'm also aware of the process, you guys have with understanding the new tyre model better. I mentioned it, just to give a perspective, why some people have a totally different experience with both sims in comparison, i'm glad to read, that it's not just seen as voodoo at this point. :D

    I have the impression (it's just this), that something in the way, the tyres load up and generate grip is not "responsive" enough. (The "over crests, dips, bumps and high load understeer" topic, when the tyres receive a lot of strain)

    Regarding the SC2020 and G55 comparison, both cars are actually pretty slidey, but in a "different manner". The G55 benefitted more of "yeeting" it into the corner, lowering the wing a lot, even restricting turn-in with more coast diff lock, when i was driving it last time, while the SC2020 needs some serious car control by the driver, making a clean turn and you can't just "eyeball" it in and also setup tweaks aren't making thaaaat much of a difference.
    Yes, the devil is in the details, i absolutely agree!

    In the case of noticeable differences, some cars in AMS2 give quite a good chunk of different experiences, when comparing them to AMS1. (Especially old Formula cars.)

    I'm convinced, you guys have a reasonable approach to improve on a totally new physical tyre system, also making progress at a whole, including all dependencies, don't get me wrong. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  15. BrunoB

    BrunoB Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    85
    You have to decide if you disagre with my description of what is happening driving the F-Reiza in the 2 mentioned corners - or what will happen if a driver behave as I have described in RL.

    1. In RL following laws of physics this will not happen.
    2. If you make some kind of mental short circuit between RL physics and any racing sims physics this will ofcourse neither happen (not happen).
    3. But if you check it out in a sim(plicity) of RL physics as in a racing sim (like AMS2) then something else than the occurence in RL is possible to happen.

    I dont have to check it out in the mentioned car/track combination - because I allready have done it so extremely often that I even have got a reasonable position on the LB for Brands HatchGP.
    But if you want to back your disagre-ing words up with something more constructive then check this car/track combi out in our sim(plicity) AMS2.:)

    ByTheWay: But be aware that you have to balance the car close to the edge of adhesion before you can feel this issue. Grandma driving will not reveal it;)

    ByTheWay2: I just saw @Crimsons comment above that sounds extremely related: The "(.. high load understeer" topic, when the tyres receive a lot of strain)
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  16. Jugulador

    Jugulador Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    90
    I did some AMS2 testing here. If I enter a corner at the same speed that I do the apex and exit (should be a little slower than a fast cornering) them the car will just turn with no change in it's attitude.

    But if I'm doing the corner fast (meaning: race/hotlap kind fast) the weight distribution will inevitably change, so the under/over steering car attitude.

    Can you, please, record a video (or use some third party) displaying this AMS2 behavior that you are talking about?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. BrunoB

    BrunoB Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    85
    I will think about it. But I wonder if it is worth the effort for me of installing some kind of video recording on my pc when everybody (even the devs) can experience it driving 1 minute with the car/track I described.

    ByTheWay: I would have no problem uploading a replay of it - but this Reiza sim is so "smart" that its impossible to save a replay of the only mode Im using at the moment - the TT mode.:mad:
     
  18. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,823
    Likes Received:
    868
    I kind of know, what you describe, but it's mostly not related to consistent cornering, but changes on the actual platform, provided by driving style. If you keep a bit too much maintenance throttle, than required, you actually accelerate already a tiny bit (also inducing a tad too much wheelspin) and unload your fronts, even move your car a tiny bit too much already in whole, which makes the behaviour more pronounced, especially, if you drive a pretty open on power diff configuration. It will eat up your friction circle quite a lot.

    Add some track elevation and loss of mechanical grip into the equasion and it can feel very "broken" but it hasn't to be.

    You can also generate something similar, if you drive the Silvia Turbo Group 5 car on Bilsterberg with cold tyres in R3E, for example. The car will heavily punish you after rotation into a washing out understeery-oversteery kind of thing, where the car wanders to the outside. You have found your (at least) personal limits at this point. The way around it is probably to be more patient, trying to induce more rotation on the brakes and applying less maitenance throttle. This will widen up your tyres window to handle combined situations of forces torturing them one by one. :)

    I was describing the behaviour into corners, when you put load on your tyres, which then leads to a fairly long phase of occuring understeer, that takes away much steering authority. It will also influence the exit, though.

    Btw.: Does the car somewhat behave like this?:
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  19. BrunoB

    BrunoB Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    85
    Ah come on Crimson are you taking piss on me?:p
    This video shows exactly the opposite of what Im describing. :rolleyes:
    Because this guy does save (extremely good) an OVERsteer slide (loosing rear end) - and thats what should happen in RL ofcourse.
    But what Im describing is a sudden UNDERsteer slide (loosing front end) in the middle of a corner when the load of the tires is high.
    So no - my good man:p

    ByTheWay: You can see on the front wheels that he is correcting/steering OUT to save the OVERsteer.;)

    1.jpg
     
  20. BrunoB

    BrunoB Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    85
    ByTheWay3: I will not exaggerate this too much (more :D) - because its only a tiny issue on a F-Reiza car that does behave extremely satisfying (thumbs UpUp):)
     

Share This Page