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Automobilista 2 - June 2020 Review - SLIP AND GRIP?!

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by kraM1t, Jun 15, 2020.

  1. Simmo99x

    Simmo99x Member

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    Yeah anyone who says AC is the Standard has lost the plot, in fact does AC even have a tyre model/physics engine, the cars just wash out at stupidly low speeds, nothing like real life, wheres the loading of the tyre/suspension before slip.(slip angle/your turning the wheel too much, garbarge excuse)
    AC might feel nice to him but when my work van doesn't understeer at 100kph how does a GT car in perfect conditions, maybe aqua plane or less than optimum circumstances but come on.
    Yeah AMS2 isn't perfect but the model/physics engine are in a different league to AC/ACC.
    After all didn't the Madness engine originate from RF/AMS1/RF2/PC and so on.
     
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  2. Avoletta1977

    Avoletta1977 Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Niels simply stated that he don't like to work with a tire model he can't control in terms of relationship between parameters and grip curve because even if better results may be achieved focusing on a specific car and dedicating a lot of time to it, keeping consistency and high standards between several vehicles would have required too much time (not compatible with AMS2 launch and/or his availability).
    For the same reason he is not working on rF2.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
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  3. kraM1t

    kraM1t New Member

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    Can anyone replicate this behaviour in AMS2? I don't have my wheel with me currently but it really makes me doubt the SETA model, this looks ridiculous and should not be possible with ANY tyre model, kind of like a grip/flick cheat. Where is the understeer with this ridiculous steering input? Yes I know it's PC2 but it's the same tyre model

     
  4. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing Reiza Backer

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    A tire model's/game engine's output is only as good as the data you input. If no care goes into what you're trying to simulate, nothing good will come out of it.
     
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  5. lawgicau

    lawgicau Active Member

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    It looks like the video above is being played with a gamepad. Maybe the game has some sort of smoothing to average out the inputs. It would be impossible to turn the wheel back and forth that quickly.
     
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  6. kraM1t

    kraM1t New Member

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    That's why I asked if somebody could test it, I can't at the moment as I don't have my wheel. You just need to set your wheel to a lower degree of rotation like 360 (so it doesn't match ingame wheel movement)

    Just a wheel with the rotation degrees lowered so you get more input per turn
     
  7. DaVeX

    DaVeX AMSUnofficial Staff Reiza Backer

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    that one!
    I remember he said it would require too much time and work, etc etc
     
  8. John Hargreaves

    John Hargreaves Active Member Reiza Backer

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    That video just highlights the shortcomings of videogames having to have varying steering rotation to accommodate all types of wheels and pads. It never looks remotely like that when I drive the same car and track. I can't see how it's connected to the tyre model.
     
  9. kraM1t

    kraM1t New Member

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    But apparently this is esports pace, which means the tyre model at a basic level is flawed since if you did this aggressive over turning in real life you'd go way over optimum slip angle and understeer off the track.
     
  10. Micropitt

    Micropitt Well-Known Member

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    I have the same experience with the Thrustmaster TX. Left everything in default and it feels great.
     
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  11. Simmo99x

    Simmo99x Member

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    No you wouldn't understeer off the track, theres no such thing as optimal slip angle where the car will suddenly understeer off the track, at most it would unsettle the balance of the car, which can actually help to carry more speed through a corner if done correctly.
    You don't just get to a set angle and the car understeers automatically, in fact most track cars have very little understeer effect, you are more likely to still grip followed by the weight transfer causing you to go off track.
    Now yes if you provoke the wheel aggressively from side to side you can induce slip/warm the tyres but you aren't going to just understeer off, it's not black ice or surface water present.
    This is why AC/ACC fails massively....
     
  12. John Hargreaves

    John Hargreaves Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Do we know if this is played with a wheel? With a pad you can flick the thumbstick side to side in a fraction of a second, i.e. full lock to lock, but there is damping to prevent that from applying the same movements to the front wheels. It just looks odd and surely any racing game can be set up to look like this, should you ever actually feel the need to do so that is.
     
  13. Mahjik

    Mahjik Active Member

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    Just a few things on the PC2 video posted.

    You could absolutely drive a car like that in real life. However, why don't real life drivers do that? Money and safety. In real life, they don't have infinite funds, cars and lives. They can't run the ragged edge like you can in a "computer game". They also don't have infinite practice time. No matter how great the sim is, we (users) still have the ability to hit the reset button and do it again.

    The other thing I can't tell in the video is if a gamepad is being used or if that's just a replay which the Madness engine replays don't save full fidelity (which makes steering wheel motions look very jerky).
     
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  14. Gevatter

    Gevatter The James May of Simracing Reiza Backer

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    Or, again, the car/tire data that has been input is inaccurate, leading to inaccurate results. The best formula won't give you good results if your inputs are bad.

    Let me counter with another video:


    Look at the speed and grip! Does that mean the AMS1 physics engine or tire model are suddenly flawed at a basic level or has Niels just been very bored when he dreamed up this kart? Because we know the engine can produce great car handling, but somehow this feels unrealistic to me.

    AMS2 had this as well in the beginning, where the in game steering wheel would seem to move at twice the speed and angle in a replay. I think this has since been fixed.
     
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  15. Andy-R

    Andy-R Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I'm no expert but surely beyond peak slip angle you get understeer as you have less grip. Like if you turn your wheel 360deg for a 90 degree corner you have probably taken the tyre waaay beyond its peak slip angle and into much reduced grip territory. IIRC Neil's talks in one of his videos about different racing games interpretations of this some with a steep drop after peak and some less so. I remember some other video related to RL where they were saying optimal slip angle can be just beyond the point you start feeling understeer and that the best drivers find that sweet spot of optimal slip. I don't claim to have even a basic understanding of car physics just repeating things I've seen/heard.
     
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  16. Avoletta1977

    Avoletta1977 Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Optimal slip is beyond the point you start feeling the steering lighter.
    If you feel understeer you should stop steering any more unless you want to mimic Fernando Alonso...
     
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  17. Andy-R

    Andy-R Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Oops that's what I meant... that feedback is sort of perceived as understeer I guess.
     
  18. Fernando

    Fernando Member

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    This video shows Fernando Alonso doing that technique, to drive his Renault F1 to win two WC titles.

     
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  19. David Wright

    David Wright Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Its not the engine Niels was proposing to re-write but his spreadsheets.
     
  20. SwaggerJacker

    SwaggerJacker Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Even Real life drivers disagree on these matters. Visit the R3E forum. The devs admit as much. One went on to say at dinner two real life drivers differed greatly on the game's physics feel. And that wasn't the first time. What I'm saying is he gives his "opinion". His opinion doesn't mean he's right or wrong, per say. It's his opinion. Are you saying he's a physics deity? That he can divine what physics are supposed to feel like, and with his title his word is beyond contestation?
     
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