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Automobilista - How the FFB works and what is new about it

Discussion in 'Automobilista - General Discussion' started by Renato Simioni, Mar 9, 2016.

  1. Rudolph523

    Rudolph523 Member

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    i am new to ams but have some strange problems with the ffb on my g920. i have it at 360 degrees because i like that the most. if i am driving it feels like it is on a cliff, if i steer left or right the wheel seems to want to go full lock by it self even if i am standin still. it is even so that if the wheel is full lock left or right while standing still, the wheel goes completly to the other side when i move the wheel a bit. i think it really shouldnt be doing that. i had it on the mini, f3 and even f1 v10. tried upping and lowering the ffb, and also changed the ffb preset, but nothing helped. i am on win 7 btw and have the newest firmware and driver from logitech. i dont have this problem in other sims and also not on my xbox one. i hope someone can help me.

    and maybe off topic. when i want to change things in the controls options ingame when i start the game up, it goes to an other preset than the one i made. and inwould like to know how i can set the auto upshift and tc off on th f1 v10.
     
  2. Heitor Facuri Cicoti

    Heitor Facuri Cicoti Good Member Staff Member Reiza Backer

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    Change the FFB value from positive to negative (or vice versa).

    About the controls, I think you need to make the changes you want and save it as a preset. It will show another preset name when you restart the game, but that doesn't mean it is the loaded preset.

    And F-V10, check the setup screen. Bottom left.
     
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  3. Rudolph523

    Rudolph523 Member

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    thanks for the reply, as far as i know i already tried changing the ffb to negative, but i will try again tonight. if it works or not i will reply again.

    as for the f v10, i will try that also.
     
  4. Rudolph523

    Rudolph523 Member

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    i have tried the negative ffb now, it is much better. the cars now feel like they should. i still need to tweak the ffb, to make it feel even better, and to get rid of the heavy damping while standing still or going slow. but thanks to get rid of that strange cliff feeling in the ffb.
     
  5. Marcelo Mandaji

    Marcelo Mandaji Member

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    My force feedback is not working and only with automobilista. I race mainly in iRacing and i tested raceroom to check FFB. There is any conflict between sims?

    I have G27 and windows 10
     
  6. Vitor

    Vitor Member Reiza Backer

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    No, there isn't.
    Have you tried following the ffb setup instructions in the game's manual?
     
  7. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    Can someone please tell me the default RealFeel MaxForceAtSteeringRack values for the F301 and F309?

    It's in the RealFeelPlugin.ini file (open with notepad) in Am's main folder (steam --> steamapps --> common --> Automobilista).

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
  8. Domagoj Lovric

    Domagoj Lovric Moderator Staff Member

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    @Spin There you go.

    Code:
    [F309:]
    MaxForceAtSteeringRack=-3000.000000
    SteeringDamper=11500.000000
    FFBMixerRealFeelPercent=100.000000
    FrontGripEffect=0.000000
    SmoothingLevel=2
    Kf=6000.000000
    Ks=5.000000
    A=1.000000
    Kr=7.000000
    [F301:]
    MaxForceAtSteeringRack=-2200.000000
    SteeringDamper=11500.000000
    FFBMixerRealFeelPercent=100.000000
    FrontGripEffect=0.000000
    SmoothingLevel=2
    Kf=6000.000000
    Ks=5.000000
    A=1.000000
    Kr=7.000000
    
     
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  9. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Yes, and somewhat bizarre that two almost identical cars would have such different MaxForce values.
     
  10. Domagoj Lovric

    Domagoj Lovric Moderator Staff Member

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    Each chassis is different.
     
  11. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    Thanks. I discovered a while back that MaxForceSteeringRack is not based on the in-game car's Nm but on another type of measurement. This measurement also cannot be converted to Nm as it's something entirely different. This leads me to my question: if I set every car in the game to the same value (eg. 10,000), will all cars still scale globally? For eg.: is a MaxForceSteeringRack FFB output during a turn of 2500 in an F3 the same "strength"/"power" as 2500 in the road-car Camaro and a kart and a Truck, etc.?

    In iRacing and rFactor 2, you can set a global Nm-FFB output so that all cars scale accordingly from this setting. In AM, would setting the MaxForceSteeringRack of every car to the same value do exactly the same thing or can it potentially be different since MaxForceSteeringRack is not a Nm measurement (nor can it be converted to Nm)?...
     
  12. Jyri Kettunen

    Jyri Kettunen Member Reiza Backer

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    Care to elaborate?
     
  13. Domagoj Lovric

    Domagoj Lovric Moderator Staff Member

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    Former question: No.
    Latter: Yes.
    So now you wonder "is he an an idiot" :). Well this is the thing: not all cars will acheive 2500 SRF (not a spec racer ford but Steering Rack Force - soon to become part of SI units, so i heard).
    In some cars FFB would be too weak then, in some stronger etc.
    Trucks for example can have forces higher then 11500 due to their weight.
    While kart on other end, is concentrated around low-ish force numbers.
    So if you would set all to 2500 one thing you surely would not get is equal strenght ffb across all cars.
    Maxforceatsteeringrack in real feel dot ini file is there to actually scale forces - so if max force a car produces is 3000, if you were to set that car to 6000, it's ffb output would never go over 50% (simply speaking). If you'd set that to 1500, you'd be clipping it after it's actual 50% force range.
    Again, such thing as maximum force does not exist actually. It can be very high number if planets align in such a way - combination of crazy crash situation, load... But generally, force which is produced when driving quickly and force that is constant in quick turns is taken as maximum - from telemetry.

    As explained above, it would actually be opposite of having all cars output equal force.

    If you wan't them all equal, you could record telemetry data for each one, check force at steering rack, write that in RealFeel ini and work from there, scaling each car how you want it.
     
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  14. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    You are saying the F309 and F301 are dramatically different chassis that would explain such a big gap in the MaxSteering setting? I think they are almost identical (certainly each relative to any other AMS cars), but the internal programming got tweaked. Same reason in reverse that so many wildly different cars work well at the same default 2500 setting.

    You could reprogram all the cars so they felt "proper" at 2500 and then let people scale from there, or, give-up on that, and just make the default MaxForce setting appropriate based on whatever is going on with the car's programming. I think AMS started out doing the former, but has moved to the latter as time pressure and more and more vehicles have appeared.
     
  15. Domagoj Lovric

    Domagoj Lovric Moderator Staff Member

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    Steering rack force is calculated from things, one of them being steering linkages left and right, their position and orientation, basically it is value heavily dependant on suspension geometry. Then comes tires grip, car weight forces acting on tires in general.
    You can "program" that to produce exactly the same forces only if you make identical cars.
     
  16. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Exactly. Those things would be almost imperceptibly different between the F301 and F309--even in real life!
     
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  17. Spin

    Spin Active Member

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    Hmmm. I'm not sure I understand. Is a force of 2500 in car A the same as 2500 in car B? Or is there more to it than that since the unit used is not Nm nor is it something that can be converted to Nm therefore maybe something different is being calculated which means 2500 in one car may equal a different output-FFB-strength from 2500 in another car?

    How can the Trucks hit 11500. I know they're heavy but 11500 means the FFB output of the trucks has more force than the crazy racecars with no power steering? This seems odd to me. Again, maybe this measurement being used for AM is not comparable between 2 different cars (when they both achieve the same number)?

    I'm not understanding either how both F3s can be so different...Are they extremely different chassis, suspension, steering, etc.?
    Can you explain what you mentioned previously about Reiza having 2 different methods of setting up the steering force or whatever you were saying? I didn't really understand (you said one way was to save more time or something?).
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  18. David Dominguez

    David Dominguez Member Reiza Backer

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    Not really, similar cars can have very different caster settings, for instance. The F309 has 13deg of caster, and the F301 has 10.5 (default), so it's to be expected that the F309 produces higher forces (it's not caster exactly what causes it, but the caster trail).

    I have data from different F3 models and they all have different caster angles, it's nothing strange.
     
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  19. Domagoj Lovric

    Domagoj Lovric Moderator Staff Member

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    2500 in car A is same as 2500 in car B.

    Trucks are way heavier then anything even with aero load. In game there is no powersteering simulation. Hence higher forces.

    I see i'm confusing you alot, but force is not limited to some number.

    Can you refer to me what needs to be clarified about setting the steering force that i mentioned previously?

    Let me try to clarify the way realfeel MaxForceAtSteeringRack per car works..
    It's a scaling method. It does not make the car maximum force be what you set it at there.
    Example. You set MaxForceAtSteeringRack to 3000. Now when realfeel receives data that current force on steering rack is 3000 - max steering FFB force is requested from the wheel driver.
    Anything above 3000 is just clipped.
    So force rises linearly from 0 (0 FFB output on wheel) to 3000 (100% FFB output). Or exponentially if you use Low force boost.

    Again, extreme in game example, hopefully for less confusion :p
    Assume low force boost is at 0%.
    If you set Kart and F-Reiza MaxForceAtSteeringRack = 3000, both vehicles now use same scaling of FFB. On both vehicles, maximum wheel FFB output is 100% when steering rack force calculated in game physics is at 3000. Any calculated force higher then 3000 is clipped to 100% ffb output on wheel.
    But while driving, you might have different feel of them, one might feel lighter then other. Thats because one of them may never or rarely reach 3000, while other one might be over it most of the time, saturating ffb output.
     
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  20. OlivierMDVY

    OlivierMDVY Member Reiza Backer

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    Hello,

    what could be the minimum force for a CSL Wheel Base? It's almost as strong as a CSW V2.
    Thanks.
     

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