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Broken FWD Copa Cup B (junior cars)?

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by DaWorstPlaya, Sep 9, 2020.

  1. azaris

    azaris New Member

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    Could be an issue with the (open?) diff, but feels to me like it's more than that. If you compare the Copa A / Copa B / HotCars version of the Passat, it's like night and day.

    The Coba B version is underpowered yet slides all over the place on corner entry and has nasty on-throttle understeer. Any kind of braking under cornering or weight transfer will send you into a tankslapper. Almost like it's on road tyres or semi-slicks, or the suspension is somehow broken.

    The HotCars version is actually very raceable with lots of grip. You can stomp on the brakes in a straight line and it will stop on a dime, you can induce some mild oversteer to turn in and then modulate the throttle to get a good exit. Typical FWD stuff. On a relatively flat track like Taruma, you can pretty much drive like the real drivers do on the video. No tankslappers, no uncontrollable drifting, just powering out of corners. You can still make it drift but this is easy to control by application of the throttle.

    But HotCars is the 80s' version of the car, whereas the Copa A/B is a modern version? I would have guessed the old version would be much harder to control. It's possible the diff is different between these version, but would be surprised if that's the only thing. This is why I wanted to know what the precise difference between these versions is, because if they can make HC version drive well I see no reason why the Copa Classic versions couldn't be nice too.
     
  2. XettMan

    XettMan Member

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    For me they where even undrivable when I drove with 40 kph...:p
    But I only tried them when they had been released, maybe now they behave more irl?
     
  3. DaWorstPlaya

    DaWorstPlaya Member

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    Nah not open diff. Open diff cars behave differently, I know because I have raced cars with open diffs IRL (front and rear). As I said earlier the power and diff lock seem to be overwhelming the tires. So the game simulates a diff on them. Perhaps it is a combination of the suspension design and low grip tires being simulated. *shrug*

    Thanks for the tip on the HotCars. I hadn't tested those before since I am new to AMS2. Now those feel more like what i would expect from cars with that power level and weight from that era. I think I'm just going to avoid the Copa Cup cars from now on and pretend like they don't exist. My only issue with the HotCars is the FFB on them is a little on the weaker side but at least they are driveable.
     
  4. azaris

    azaris New Member

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    Yes I had to bump LFX to 35 to get the proper self-aligning torque in these cars. You might need to do something similar depending on which wheel you use. Once I did that, they really came alive and are probably some of my favourite to drive now.
     
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  5. DaWorstPlaya

    DaWorstPlaya Member

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    Thanks for the heads up, I'll try that.
     
  6. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    You are mistaking race cars for the road cars. They have little in common.

    A FWD road car is just about the worst possible thing you would ever want to be in on a race track. Hence why the race versions are set-up completely the opposite of the road car.

    There are diff issues Reiza is looking at that could affect many cars..all these included. The Copa Classics are more skittish than the Hot Cars. However, the Copa Classics can easily be tamed with simple set-up adjustments. I am sure they will get tweaked along with most cars, but it seems some people are expecting them to handle resembling a FWD road car, which they absolutely will (and should) not.

    Take note of race car parts such as anti-roll bars that are not available on the road car versions. (Or notice the stripped interiors and many other visible changes). Just adjusting (or disconnecting) the anti-roll bars alone transforms these cars. The set-ups that are on them now will more than likely be the fastest, though, so as you tame the car you will also be slowing it down.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  7. DaWorstPlaya

    DaWorstPlaya Member

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    I've driven FWD/RWD/AWD racecars in real life and no sane racer would setup FWD cars the way they are setup in AMS2. I know what it takes to setup a fast FWD race car and I disagree that the way the car is setup in AMS2 is either realistic, fast or safe. If anything it is a receipe for disaster. No sane real world racer would setup their race car that way. Is a race car more unstable and twitchy than a street car? Sure, but not to the extent these Copa Cup B FWD cars are setup.

    The setup adjustments in AMS2 doesn't have the range to fix the inherent problem with the physics of these cars. Just my humble opinion. Have you driven any of these cars in real life? Or got a setup that works to be fast and driveable in the game? I would like to know if I'm missing something.
     
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  8. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    What FWD race cars have you driven in real life? There are almost none, so curious.

    Standard set-up adjustments work for me--bars, tire pressures, toe-in, springs in that order. I don't expect any super-sophisticated set-up tricks in such rudimentary vehicles. If I recall the cars have realistic simple three position anti-roll bars. So, to make the car as dull as possible, disconnect the bar in the rear and put it to the "hard" setting on the front. That alone makes a very noticeable difference.
     
  9. DaWorstPlaya

    DaWorstPlaya Member

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    Race prepped CRXs and Civics for local amatuer series. Plenty of people convert those cheap cars into fun race cars. I guess I don't understand what you mean by there are no FWD race cars?

    Yep, I've messed with the all the settings you mentioned in the game plus the shocks (which IMHO makes the biggest difference). I couldn't get it to a place where I felt the car was balanced for corner entry, steady state and exit, everything just felt wrong to me. But I guess there are some people driving these cars that think they handle OK. *shrug*
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  10. SaxOhare

    SaxOhare Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    Nice cars to drive, but some people think they are not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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  11. azaris

    azaris New Member

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    No one is expecting them to drive like road FWD cars. We are expecting them to drive like cars on the videos linked (which exhibit no wild countersteering or drifting around corners), like comparable FWD cars in other sims, and like the HotCars versions of these cars in the same sim. Doing minute changes to the ARBs will not fix issues like the fundamental instability under braking. We also don't share your disdain for FWD cars in racing, and there are plenty of people who enjoy this type of racing in sims and in real life.
     
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  12. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I just did a back-to-back test drive at Goiania Short using exclusively default set-ups and with properly configured FFB that allows you to easily feel what the back-end of the car is doing:
    1. Hot Cars Gol
      • Feels similar to CC Gol except with the extra grip afforded by much better tires
      • No issues with braking
      • The much grippier tires allow for a more secure feel and easier time
    2. Copa Classic Gol
      • Drives like a race-prepped under-tired FWD car
      • No issues with braking
      • Could be tamed and slowed with simple set-up alterations
    3. Copa Classic Passat
      • Similar to CC Gol--too little tire for the size and power of car
      • No issues with braking
      • Perfectly driveable, but also could be tamed and slowed with simple set-up alterations
    4. Hot Cars Passat
      • Tamer set-up combined with much better tires makes for easier time than CC Passat
      • Simply disconnecting front ARB moves it almost to the same rotation level as CC Passat
      • With a couple of extra set-up tweaks, it could be made to drive very similarly to CC Passat, but will always feel a bit better due to better tire grip to car weight and HP ratio
    Bottom-line for me is that the CC cars do not feel broken or inappropriate. Of course they are more skittish than the Hot Cars, but they drive like the ones in the video. I am not sawing at the wheel or correcting the steering in any unusual manner. You set-up the car for the turn and glide through it with the steering wheel staying fairly inactive throughout. The Hot Cars are more or less the same. At the same speed, they are tamer, but the better tires allow for faster cornering. As soon as you push them to their maximum limits, they become about the same handful as the CC's do at their (slower) maximum limit. They are more alike than different.

    I accept that some of you will not agree with this assessment. No worries, but I did not want anyone to have the impression that I was glibly dismissing comments or relying on old memories, etc. I expect the CC cars will get an update pass that may tame them a bit if Reiza decides that a slower, more conservative set-up is preferable. But to go fastest, they will likely need to be bent back to where they are now in the end.
     
  13. azaris

    azaris New Member

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    Now that Reiza have demonstrated they can do basic FWD characteristic spot-on with the superb Mini 1965, could we please have a revisit of these cars to be up to a similar standard? The excessive lift-off oversteer exhibited by these cars makes me think something is wrong with the engine inertia settings that could be fixed relatively easily, just as it was for the Group A cars. It shouldn't be necessary to go to extremely soft setups just to get a driveable car IMO.
     
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