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Camaro SS is broken

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Freeway, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. Shriukan

    Shriukan Touristenfahrten Community AMS2 Club Member

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    Rear cam needs to be moved up yeah. Feels like it is positioned in the trunk xD
     
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  2. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    The cars in the street class have no relation to each other. The Camaro SS is obviously (and should be) the slowest of the three that are there now, by a wide margin.
     
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  3. Freeway

    Freeway Member

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    Drove version 1.1.0.5 in the HP Reverb G2 a bit... While the Camaro SS continues to suffer from too much understeer and way too much body roll, it is definitely getting there. It is now more manageable even with the TC set to 100 (all the way off...which is highly counter intuitive) and the Rear ARB stiffened by one notch. But, it still feels weak compared to a real Camaro SS both in terms of cornering and torque. In contrast, the Camaro GT4r in AMS 2 feels superb to drive in almost every respect.

    And, while I agree that the Camaro SS should be the "slowest of the three" [Street Cars in AMS], it really shouldn't feel "slow" at all. I remember when a 2016 Camaro SS was ticketed for 171 mph (275 kph) on the interstate about a week before mine arrived from Detroit.

    See 2016 Camaro clocked speeding at 171 mph.
     
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  4. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    It sure doesn't feel slow to me. The massive torque in that car allows you to hit highly illegal and impossible to corner and brake speeds for a 3,750 lb. behemoth (by race car standards) in a flash. No one has ever doubted its ability to go fast in a straight line. Objective reviews all point to the cornering capabilities as the expected weak link. The AMS 2 cars feels completely plausible in this regard.
     
  5. Freeway

    Freeway Member

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    I hope one day that you'll get a chance to get behind the wheel of a sixth generation Camaro SS in an environment that allows you to test cornering and acceleration. I guarantee you'll be surprised at just how capable it is...

    I think the real problem is how you define a race car. Is a 2011 Porsche GT3RS a race car to you? Why or why not?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  6. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    A race car is a dedicated race "track car" that is street illegal.

    Please forward me (PM or here if you think its great) a review from any reputable source that describes the handling of the car. I did above--a source that is as kiss-ass to car manufacturers as you can get. Would love to read a more positive review of the handling.
     
  7. Freeway

    Freeway Member

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    There have been plenty of quick and bawdy Camaros over the years, though. What’s a bit more unexpected this time around is the level of precision with which this Camaro moves. It helps that, at 3760 pounds, this new car is about 100 pounds more trim than a similarly equipped fifth-generation car. It’s a tidier package overall, losing a couple of inches of wheelbase and length and an inch of width compared with the outgoing car. The new Camaro also uses aluminum front-suspension links, and while the rear links are steel, they’re shot through with lightening holes. The Camaro’s structure doesn’t feel light, though; it feels as tank-solid as the tanklike visibility suggests it is. But the car moves in a way that belies that impression. Quick electric-assist steering and excellent front-end grip mean that you fire the Camaro into corners. There is no extraneous steering input necessary as the Camaro exhibits excellent path control. Body motions—roll, pitch, and squat—are all tightly controlled. What little body motion that is allowed is meted out in a perfectly progressive fashion. A trustier back-road companion is hard to come by. It’s not the muscle-bound brute some might be expecting and that its body might suggest—it’s a fully modern sports coupe.
    From: Tested: All-New 2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS!

    Hustling both the V-6 LT and the V-8 SS through Hell's angelic country roads proved a revelation. This is the most driver-focused Camaro ever. It fits you like a custom suit—no unnecessary sheetmetal weighing you down, your hands and feet moving easily over smartly placed controls, the car light and direct and quick as you flick the wheel and snap off the shifts. The SS, of course, is the real bad boy, its V-8 nailing you to the seat as it smoothly wails toward its redline, the passing trees a funnel of green, the chassis alive and sprightly as no Camaro before this. Yes, over a sudden bump or with a too-strong jab of throttle the rear end will definitely skip a bit, but for the most part the car feels nothing but pinned down and lovely. Hmmm. "Lovely." Not a word I've ever used to describe driving a Camaro.
    From: Motortrend

    Additionally, the SS can be ordered with Chevy's Magnetic Ride Control, an adaptive suspension setup that utilizes magnetic dampers for a customized driving experience. This suspension, previously only available on the high-performance ZL1, can instantly transform the Camaro from comfortable cruiser to full-bore corner-carving sports car.
    From: https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/camaro/2016/review/

    And even under the less-than-ideal driving conditions, it’s easy to tell that the Zeta to Alpha change is an important one. If you’re comparing the ’16 Camaro to the Challenger (which I have an irrational soft spot for, especially in the higher-powered trims), the previous Camaro or even the new Mustang, it’s not even close -- the 2016 Camaro feels more balanced, more mature and more refined all around. Less like some weird muscle/pony car, more like an outright sports car.
    From: 2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS Review: A True Sports Car at Last?

    For video reviews, see
    2016 Camaro SS

    2016 Camaro SS

    2017 Camaro SS 1LE @ Laguna Seca reviewed by Randy Probst
     
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  8. Freeway

    Freeway Member

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    You will note in every case there is very limited body roll in the real Camaro SS. Moreover, the real Camaro SS has much better handling and much less body roll than is exhibited in AMS2.
     
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  9. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    As I already quoted earlier in the thread:

    From the Motor Trend review of the 2019 SS:

    The 2019 Camaro SS also just about matched the figure-eight numbers of the pre-refresh, non-1LE SS, clocking a time of 23.9 seconds at an average of 0.84 g. That's certainly an impressive time, but according to testing director Kim Reynolds, it didn't come easy. In Track mode with stability control off, the Camaro required great finesse when lapping our course.

    "I only used third gear because in second the tail is way too sensitive, and even in third it's extremely easy to launch it sideways," Reynolds wrote in his notes. "The way to drive this thing is to very, very carefully keep it mildly understeering and only mildly oversteering on exit. So you have to be meter-in steering and throttle very carefully. This is not a car to be horsed around. A spin is a twitch of the right foot away."


    Your videos are all from the same North American sychophantic commercial publications that are not credible sources for comparative reviews. They do make clear what no one is disputing--that this is by far the best Camaro ever and a huge leap over the previous generation. But let's be frank--0.84 g is not impressive and neither is the description of the behaviour anything like as you keep claiming.

    What they do not prove nor even discuss is what really matters to us here:
    • How would a still barge-heavy latest, greatest Camaro fare on the track against vastly lighter pure sports cars that have even more power and torque than it?
    • How would it fare against even the lowliest race car (e.g., f-Trainer) in the corners?
    No one bothers to do thee comparisons because no one is cross-shopping a Camaro with a McLaren or Ultima (or Ferrari, etc.). The Camaro is fantastic value and fun, but it isn't in the same league as those purer sports cars, nor does anyone expect it to be.

    No one compares real race cars with street-legal sports cars because every one of the street cars would be embarrassed by the lowliest of race cars. You just spent $200K on some fancy exotic and then hop in a $20K trainer that can run circles around it. Doesn't help to sell expensive cars. But to be honest, no one is cross-shopping those two things, either, but it doesn't change the reality of the performance differences.

    There are people trying to boast that some ludicrously bloated giant SUV is a great performance vehicle. Well, they are full of it. Yes, considering the height and weight of those vehicles, the capabilities the engineers and designers have squeezed out of them are almost miraculous. But the performance is still awful compared to a hot hatchback at 1/3 of the price, let alone something designed as a lightweight, low-slung sports car.

    And as for AMS 2, I have already explained that sensations of body roll and other feedback is necessarily exaggerated so we can easily feel and tell the difference when we jump from the heaviest, tallest, tippiest car in the game (we won't compare to F-Trucks)--which at this point is the Camaro--to the other end of the spectrum in a go kart.

    I personally do not perceive more body roll than is plausible, but that could be affected by my camera settings. I prefer minimal horizon movement. Doesn't matter--the only comparison that is worth any of our time is whether the g-force cornering capability and corner speeds at actual corners on actual tracks match-up with the real car and if braking distances are similar. Rose-tinted reviews (for all cars, not just Camaro) mean nothing. Track specs will resolve whether the car is close to realistically simulated. Reiza uses these to calibrate their cars, so any evidence presented will be helpful to them I am sure.

    If by chance, there are any credible comparative reviews of the SS against other vehicles outside its class (even the new Vette would qualify), I'd love to read them.
     
  10. DaWorstPlaya

    DaWorstPlaya Active Member

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    That's the problem Freeway, you're arguing with people the haven't driven a Camaro IRL and have no clue how or what they should feel like. I know what you mean as I've had the opportunity to drive them IRL and I agree with your assessment. When someone with no practical experience disagrees with your assessment, you should probably take what they say with a grain of salt.
     
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  11. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    Yes, and perhaps those who have drive the exact model of Camaro car should also list other sports and race cars they have driven, so we can determine whether expectations are reasonable or not. Just because you love your car, and it is hugely better than models of yore, doesn't turn it into a race car, or a McLaren F1....or even a current model Corvette. And none of the reviews support any such notions.
     
  12. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I noticed, the Camaro doesn't always roll as crazy, i'm spending more time with it later probably.

    I have recorded a video with it at Ibarra, playing around with it for 2 laps and doing some more violent stuff (still on a "normal" driving related base) for a few corners after it. The car starts rolling a lot while weaving, but keeps its base stable when trying to compress front or rear of the suspension a lot, i have the feeling.

    I probably will have some more time with it later, but i'm actually impressed by how it drives now.

    The reporting of excessive body-roll seems sometimes not completely unfounded, though, because this could be a close to safety compromising behaviour in some situations, if this car would do this IRL, but i have to recheck more. (moose test) I weave it a bit after the 2nd lap.

    But overall, i'm actually surprised. ^^'

    Sorry for the sh!tty quality:
     
  13. Freeway

    Freeway Member

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    Marc Collins: You keep alluding to what you drive and claiming it behaves somehow like the sixth generation Camaro SS. Enlighten us. What do you drive? And, how does it relate to a sixth generation Camaro SS.

    In the meantime, the Lightning Laps at VIR compares all the cars you asked about on track. Reread the post a page or so back that ends, "Elephant indeed..."
     
  14. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    Only after you tell me what race cars you have driven to be able to make suggestions such as the SS in the game should handle more like the GT4 Camaro in the game.

    This isn't a pissing contest. I have owned many high-performance road cars over many years. But they are all relatively heavy, larger, semi-practical vehicles like the SS or even sedans and wagons--not pure sports cars. That's precisely why I know what the difference is between a relative elephant and a real sports car (or even a nimble vehicle like a Miata or modern Lotus). I also have more race car seat time than most people here, so I also know how poorly even exotic, expensive sports car do when pitted against fairly cheap and wooly race cars (that are more capable because they are no-compromise designed for nothing but track use).

    My badgering about this is purely because you have shown no evidence that you understand these differences. You love your car, which is a very nice vehicle for what it is intended, but somehow have convinced yourself it can compete with vehicles in other classes. It does not, nor are there any reviews or objective assessments that suggest it would or could. And none of that is a surprise. If a lowly, mid-priced, sporty car dropped into the market that was suddenly able to perform far outside its class, we'd all know about it. The latest Camaro is not to be confused with the older, unsophisticated models or even the half-decent prior generation car. It's so much better, as all the reviews proclaim. But it is also not to be confused with any other car in AMS 2, because it doesn't have any direct class-mates.
     
  15. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Could we please stop the argument? Share the love, guys! :D

    I'm highly interested in if you guys are experiencing this excessive roll everytime and enduring over the whole course of driving? I was throwing around the car and as long the front and also rear are more compressed, for example (like visible in the video), it actually feels surprisingly race-car like in AMS2. As soon as you are coasting, or not compressing front suspension more, the car starts to really roll a lot. The car is surprisingly agile at Ibarra. I still agree with some perceptions about body-roll, i might do the moose test today :D

    Maybe it's a setup thing actually and not physics in particular anymore.

    The best in weight/power/torque ratio i have driven, was a garage welded dirt buggy with rear engine and it was agile af. So no real matching comparison.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  16. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    @Freeway
    Would you like to apply these settings to the Camaro SS? Maybe it's worth a try, to make it a bit more agile/raceable. I wouldn't expect miracles, but who knows :) You could additionally also add a tiny bit more negative front camber.
    (clack me)
    20210122224151_1.jpg 20210122224152_1.jpg 20210122224153_1.jpg
     
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  17. Freeway

    Freeway Member

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    So, for your benefit, I grew up in a family that loves to go fast. The majority of my 40 plus years of driving experience actually comes from the hundreds of hours of seat time I had in a class 2 full belts/nets/cage off road race car with the engine bored to 1835cc. [Not so different from what Crimson Experience referred to] That is the vehicle in which I learned how to drift, jump, wheelie, you name it. Prior to that I loved to play in carts or Malibu Grand Prix cars (too young to have a license at the time). Since then, I have driven numerous early 70s Pontiac Trans Ams including the car featured in Hooper and a world record holder (drag). I have driven 911s from the 60s and 70s. I have driven the infamous 1977 Porsche 930 turbo (in which letting off mid corner is a bad idea). I have driven 928s and 944s. I have driven a Berlinetta Boxer. I have also driven everything from Miatas to Lotuses. I have driven several turbocharged/supercharged/blown cars and trucks featured in Hot Rod Magazine and Car Craft. I have driven modified 240s. I have also driven a blown hydro pickle fork well into the triple digits. I have piloted twin engine boats up to 35 feet. And, when I say driven, I mean had the opportunity to put the cars/trucks/boats to the test... So, I know from whence I speak.

    I do define race cars differently than you do though. I don't limit them to illegal street cars. Instead, I define them as anything that is or would be reasonably safe and fun to wring out on a track for a few laps or more.

    Lastly, I do love the Camaro. The fact that it can eat 2011 Porsches for lunch on a track like VIR and do 170+mph on an interstate makes it incredibly special. I should note: Because of where I live now, I have never been able to safely explore the triple digit sector in the Camaro. I suppose I could take it to the local drag strip, but I much prefer carving the paved and unpaved twisty back roads.

    In conclusion, I should add that the Chevy SS is a wonderful family car. About 10 years ago, I seriously considered one because they are practical, quick, and comparatively rare... But, they don't compare.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  18. Tarmac Terrorist

    Tarmac Terrorist Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    This car has been the source of much controversy from the begining, It did have some rather obvious handling quirks. Now though, wow its come such a long way in such a short period of time (but then you could say that of most aspects of this sim).
    I have to say It's really turning into a car I love to drive and have a hell of a lot of fun going sideways in! It can also be driven In a much more conservative manner easily now. I love the fact its now capable of both! It just feels so much better in either regaurd! But oh!, it is so much fun to do this with!
     
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  19. John Hargreaves

    John Hargreaves Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Great little video, and by the way, thanks for all your efforts in spreading the word about AMS2 across YouTube, that's fine work you are doing.
     
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  20. Spitfire1

    Spitfire1 New Member

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    Not unless you have driven the car in real life can you accurately assess if it is realistic or not in the sim. It is a SIM after all. What has happened to people these days? No common sense left lol.
     
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