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DOR issue...

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Simmo99x, Jan 9, 2021.

  1. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    Simmo. Could you show in video you going through your settings. to produce the effect pls.
    or images
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
  2. Simmo99x

    Simmo99x Active Member

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    I will try to compare 2 laps in a video tomorrow, but settings wise I just calibrate my wheel to 900, then just adjust with the presets on my wheel, Thrustmaster, 900,540,360,240.
    Depending on the car, I usually run 540, but 900 if it feels too over sensitive/twitchy.
    That's when I came across chasing my ghost, that running 900, then 540 I was so much quicker through most corners.(hold a tighter line)
    So I tried 240 for a quick test, and it was even faster, now it felt horrible and was vv twitchy/usually over rotated/spun out, but after a few more goes, it was very evident that even with a bad lap I was able to just carry a lot more speed through most corners.
    The tyres just seem to dig in and grip more, and that is with full lock on 900/240, so its definitely weird.
    Its like at 900 to go flat out you have to nail/use all the track, 240 you can literally be in the middle of the track and make the corner easy flat out, without any loss of speed/scrub effect.
     
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  3. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    Thank you Simmo this should help others to replicate as well.
    As I mention also the 2nd test video test done here, I need to validate confirm settings g29 This seems inconsistent atm so pref to continue elimination. Vid results is interesting nonetheless.
    Edit test changed so cut from here.
    Thanks again
    Have fun
    EDIT
    There is a settings in car setup also , Default 20 if I recall
    Full lap would be even better anybody. Showing ghost or car on opposite settings
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  4. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Had same experience in all sims. I explained with the fact that you have a much faster turn in while in the other cases you reach the necessary angle to go through the corner much later in time which is equivalent to a much softer tire and much more understeer. Plus as soon as you move out of the line the track is much more slippery. The difference is always quite evident in all sims I tried it on: iracing, AC, ACC. Here it could be especially so since there seems to be a max steering lock instead of steering ratio, which could hint at a different way to account for your changes in DOR than the usual sim.
    BTW if you crank up the steering sensitivity you get (almost) the same result.
     
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  5. Romeo Foxtrot

    Romeo Foxtrot Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I'm using T300 RS. If I change the DoR in Control Panel but don't recalibrate, the wheel is, well, wrong.

    I set DoR to 900, start AMS2, calibrate wheel, all good.
    I changed DoR to 360, restart AMS 2 or return to it, wheel has soft lock at 180 (90 degrees each way!).
    I recalibrate wheel and soft lock goes to 360.

    Logitechs must be different.

    Either way I can't change steering sensitivity. It always reverts to 50.

    Curious!
     
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  6. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    Thanks, helpful
    Same procedure here had 180 my wheel softlock 360dor. same

    Quote me....1st page .
    I set it to 360, Ran GT1 Merc. and BT44.
    Merc after crashing my way around Bathurst lol for a couple of laps. I got used to the extra sensitivity and did a couple of laps.


    {Also had inconsistency} today
    Do you experience OP issue? or replicate
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
  7. Romeo Foxtrot

    Romeo Foxtrot Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Firstly, I don't exactly match Simmo's consistency (let alone his times!) but my best laps are with my default DoR of 360 (the default for the Formula wheel in Control Panel).

    I've also manage to change steering sensitivity but I have to go a few clicks at a time. A change of 10 or more won't stick.

    FWIW, I use Logitech Momo wheel (240 DoR) and CH Products Pro Rudder Pedals in the office (for anything online). I've used G25 with 270 between '06 and last March when G25 went skewed (a few degrees off centre). I'm still getting used to 360.
     
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  8. Simmo99x

    Simmo99x Active Member

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    Ok so I tried to do a test to show the subtle differences.
    It's not 100% accurate but you can sort of get the issue/effect of running either Low DOR or High sensitivity.
    Not a massive amount of difference, but after lot of testing back and forward seems a range of about 10kph per corner, mid/fast, doesn't seem to effect slow corners really.
    Obviously over the coarse of 1 lap it adds up.


    It just seems that the tyre seems to bite and hold a tighter line on 540 and below, over the higher 900-1080.
    If it's not an issue in the game that can be sorted, then I would say to run 540 maximum.
    The cars/physics seem to work a hell of a lot better.
    By the way this isn't a swipe at AMS2, love the game, 400hrs in so far and really enjoying it.
    Cheers.
     
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  9. Simmo99x

    Simmo99x Active Member

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    Although after the latest patch, the game feels a hell of a lot different to me, just testing a few cars now.
    Seems a lot has been changed in the way the cars drive/behave...
     
  10. Not_DrRyan

    Not_DrRyan New Member

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    For better or for worse? that is always the question :p
     
  11. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Because they changed a lot of tires walls stiffnesses.
    Bear in mind it is a physical fact that if at turn in you can achieve a small (even few degrees) of early rotation (yaw) of the car this will result in a lot less lateral displacement 200 m far down at the end of the corner if nothing else is changed (speed, max lateral acceleration etc.). If you consider how much ground the car is covering in that period of time it takes to turn the wheel to the correct angle and the amount of car rotation you leave on the table by having a slower steering wheel it makes sense that you use a lot of track more. Add to this that the wider you go to less grip... So with a slower rotating wheel you will be forced to reduce your speed and add more steering input to achieve the same exit point and angle which is the book definition of understeer. That is why it is always better to have the lowest number for DOR as you can drive.
     
  12. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    And hence why race car designers choose the appropriate DOR for their cars, which AMS 2 adjusts automatically if you let it. Go karts and F-Trucks, as two extreme examples, are not intended to use the same DOR, nor will they perform optimally with one.
     
  13. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Bearing in mind also that in real world there is the human factor really in the loop: a too direct reduction of the steering rack would require Hulk's strength and too much precision with the steering angle and would not be viable... In sims you can reduce a lot the gain and do the bus stop chicane at Spa with 30-45 degrees of steering angle and be half a second faster in that corner alone
     
  14. Mat Kane

    Mat Kane Member AMS2 Club Member

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    This isn't the experience I'm having, and it's unique to AMS2 versus everything else I've driven. It's almost like there's a scaling factor that isn't functioning as it should. There is a resistance through the wheel feedback simulating the loading and friction of the front end that builds as the weighting transfers and the car rotates. There is a point where there is a peak loading perceived, and that a breaking of traction and understeer is imminent. In AMS2, and it is apparent in most cars I've tried, that there is an additional 10-15 degrees of input available beyond that perceived slipping point, and that the car still has plenty of grip to give, even without making any changes to speed through modulating the throttle or brake.

    This isn't just a turn-in issue, for me it's most perceptible in slower corners, especially hairpins. Cranking further on the wheel mid-turn obliterates any sensation of the front end drifting wide and pulls the car tight to the apex, without changes in speed. Increasing the sensitivity and lowering the DOR has helped (but not eliminated) this sensation, but there is still an eerie feeling of unpredictability of where the front end of the car is going to end up in any given corner.

    All of this could well be tied into the diff issue and I'd love it if it was resolved in the same fix, but at the moment it's a real immersion killer for me, unfortunately.
     
  15. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    What you are describing is the purposefully exaggerated communicativeness of the default FFB in AMS 2. It isn't totally natural, but it allows one to better understand what the car is doing. It works at any DOR, but if you have a weak wheel or unoptimized FFB settings, it may be very likely that reducing DOR will compress the FFB into a tighter range and allow you to better receive this "communication." I get it fine with the normal settings and allowing AMS 2 to adjust my DOR automatically, as intended.

    This slightly unnatural/exaggerated ramping-up of forces as you experience higher cornering force is why a lot of people try a custom FFB file and prefer it. There, you are losing some communication to gain other communication. Pick your flavour. The DOR "trick" will also intensify the custom forces and could allow a user a better read of what's happening, which translates into better control.
     
  16. Ettore

    Ettore Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I think it is something related to settings. At my end once you have front slippage there is no additional grip for those cars that are behaving (close to) correctly with the diff. Different is the story of the cases where the diff is trolling you. In those cases you initially have a s...load of understeer and when you give enough steering input the diff snaps open and all of a sudden you find more front grip (or more oversteer if you remember/re-watch my T1 loss of control from P3 in our first race at Jacarepagua').
    It is more evident in relatively slow corners but it is there also in the fast ones. It's not additional grip it's the diff being an a$$ with you (and me) :confused:
     
  17. neal

    neal Active Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I have to say and this is also from my own experience with reducing DoR and getting better performance, that there is no trick, we are just finding the sweet spot for that particular car. I came across this in AMS1 and the MCR 2000 in particular, but after examining carefully what was going on, I concluded I had just found the sweet spot for that vehicle. But I stand to be corrected.
     
  18. Mat Kane

    Mat Kane Member AMS2 Club Member

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    It's an odd sensation Marc, I don't think it's just the feedback. I wish I could explain it better. Kind of like driving a car with the threads all stripped out on the tierods. I'll just have to reset everything and start again. I appreciate your response.

    Oh, hi Mad! Didn't realize that was you :). This is certainly the experience I'm having at Silverstone right now (especially evident at Woodcote). Constant steering angle, foot flat on the gas, and the car suddenly (hits a bump, maybe?) pitches me 30-40 degrees sideways, then snaps back into line two seconds later like nothing happened. I'll just have to keep farting around with the controller setup. It would be nice to have input gauges on the controller screen a la AMS to see what's going on. Thanks again.
     
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  19. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    This is very simple to test. Take a car and a track that you know well enough to runs laps at 1% or less variation in lap times. Then, pick a couple of the key corners and at both the lowest and the highest DOR record the maximum speed through those corners. At the extremes there should be a statistically measurable difference.

    I am testing AMS 2 stuff all the time. I don't have the will or energy to do this because I don't believe it is real. But would be delighted to be proven wrong because if it is real, Reiza needs to address it on an emergency basis.

    What I don't understand is why after four pages of discussion we have no solid evidence presented...
     
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  20. Domagoj Lovric

    Domagoj Lovric Moderator Staff Member

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    Ok so excuse me for jumping from page 2 to the end to note this.

    From what i understand, in this topic we're implying: lowering wheel rotation (DOR) gives more grip?

    Let me do what EXACT steps are necessary to yield what is implied here.

    1) Let's assume we have our XX wheel set to 900° in it's own control panel.
    2) In game wheel is calibrated.
    3) Driving car XX on track XX we consistently get x1:y1 lap time.

    Now we're after decreasing wheel degrees of rotation.
    4) we're out of game, in wheel control panel decreasing wheel degrees of rotation, to say 240°.
    5) This is part that interests me most: wheel IS RECALIBRATED or NOT?
    6) Driving car XX on track XX now we're consistently getting lap time several seconds faster then x1:y1?

    I personally quickly tried f-vee , dropped DOR on-wheel setting to 240° (didn't recalibrate) -> f-vee became incredibly twitchy.
     

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