1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Formula-Retro drivability

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Damian Baldi, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. 250swb

    250swb Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    39
    If you have zero downforce you still have drag given the same size wing. So even when the old Hockenheim circuit is released with it's insanely long straight the top speed in the game 'shouldn't' be able to match a real car with it's fast circuit aero changes of smaller wings with thinner chord profiles.
     
  2. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    166
    Doesn't this depend entirely on how the game models this? Maybe Im just too used to thinking of sim games as having realism limitations. It's not that you're wrong, it just seems pedantic in context. But maybe Im just severely underestimating the depth of the simulation.

    Even with that in mind, I dont see how it really matters in terms of a realistic top speed. You could take modern F1 cars and take all the wings off and see top speeds too, but it doesnt really mean anything. Im much more interested in top speed for a semi-realistic setup. Looking at pictures of the 71 Monza GP... looks like most of those guys were running wings. So that was the exception, not the rule.
     
  3. Mahjik

    Mahjik Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2020
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    59
    At least with PC2, zero wing did not mean "zero downforce". It just meant the lowest possible setting.
     
  4. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    166
    Then that makes it even more relevant for a competition spec top speed estimate.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. David Wright

    David Wright Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    157
    Rindt's last race was in 1970.

    This is a video of Monza in 1974. The cars all have wings and they do not appear to be smaller than usual. By 1974 they had added two chicanes which reduced the benefit of extreme aero setups.

     
  6. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    166
    For the record, looks like Rindt was killed in a Lotus 72 at Monza without its wings in 1970. It is an early Lotus 72, though.
     
  7. 250swb

    250swb Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    39
    Sorry, yes 1970.
     
  8. 250swb

    250swb Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    39
    Well I'm sorry, I was only discussing it because people earlier in the thread were comparing top speeds in AMS2 at different circuits compared with real life speeds. Forgive me for pointing out teams used different wings when top speed was important and this isn't modeled in AMS2 so comparisons are going to be unrealistic.

    It is not an exception to the rule at Monza in 1972 just because you can see a wing on each car, they could be mounted lower and further out of the airstream, they could have a thinner profile, they could actually be narrower. You see wings on modern cars but the teams will make a different wing with less drag and downforce for Monza. The devil is in the detail and since the actual wing can't be changed in AMS2 comparing top speeds at different tracks against the real thing is a futile exercise.
     
  9. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,618
    Likes Received:
    744
    Rake makes a difference in top end acceleration, too in the F-Retro class. You can increase your front ride height and bring your rear also down. It will result in a bit more understeer on high speed to mid speed corners as compromise, these cars don't feature a rear diffuser, so you can still work with provoking slight oversteer. Especially the BT44 should be sensitive with changes on rake, but it seems also to apply on the other cars. The V12 Retro has some significant lack in top speed without changes on the rake side, but it's also the most suffering car by making compromises.
     
  10. Andy-R

    Andy-R Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    228
    Are you sure this isn't the case in AMS 2? It might not be, I don't know but haven't seen them mention anything on the subject. It will be some sort of guess work they used but to simulate the rough range of one particular wing or the rough range for the car in general? It is probably just broad guess work so pot luck whether the range we have is greater than or less than that of a specific wing setup in the real cars in the ? season.
     
  11. 250swb

    250swb Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    39
    In the era called Retro or Vintage the wings more or less stayed the same in each race aside from the adjustable angle for most of the season except for the usual exceptions of very high downforce tracks like Monaco, or very high speed circuits like Monza (and Hockenheim). But even subtle changes could be made to aspects of the wings such as adding or removal of a Gurney Flap that could change the downforce or drag in big ways. These subtleties aren't modelled in AMS2, only an average aero setup with a normal range of rake, so as I suggest talk of comparing top speeds at different circuits, such as Monaco or Monza, shouldn't really compare with the real thing because the tools aren't there. So it is a semi sim, it's closesr but for the sake of people playing it the insanity of the full range of aero tweaks aren't there for a good reason.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Andy-R

    Andy-R Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    228
    Ah ok, so the change in aero performance from the wing adjustment in setup is similar to that which you would expect from adjusting the angle of a specific wing on a 70's F1 car rather than that which you would get from adding/removing/changing the wings IRL?
     
  13. Andy-R

    Andy-R Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    228
    I gave all the Formula Retro cars a back to back test at Kyalami. Lotus 72E seems fastest by quite a bit, I spent least time in it and went quickest overall. I spent the most time in the McLaren, I think it is probably pretty similar in pace to the Brabham around this track. The main thing that stood out to me trying all these cars (and tweaking the setups in a similar way) they all feel very similar other than differences in default setup and drag/downforce. I don't know much about the real cars but with the freedom they had back then I expected them to feel a bit less similar, we all know what they say about assumption though I suppose.

    Lap Times:

    Lotus 72E - 1:12.397
    Formula Retro V8 - 1:12.682
    McLaren M23 - 1:12.703
    Brabham BT44 - 1:12.855
    Formula Retro V12 - 1:13.150

    Here's a hacked together replay of the laps
     
    • Like Like x 8
  14. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Active Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    118
    Very interesting article about the Shadow DN5 and DN7 (a.k.a. Retro v8 and Retro v12).

    Check the data about aero distribution front/rear and some other rich information.

    Shadow DN7 Matra…
     
    • Like Like x 4
  15. SaxOhare

    SaxOhare Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2016
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    268
    I always run the Mclaren with front-wing 1 and rear-wing 5, as soon as I increase these values the car becomes very unstable.
    I try to increase them sometimes to get more grip in the corners, but I never go faster with these higher values.

    Isn't that strange?
     
  16. Andy-R

    Andy-R Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    228
    It is mostly a shift in aero balance that causes that I think. If you increase the front wing by 1 click you might find you have to go up 2 or 3 clicks at the rear to have a similar stability. Front wing really helps sometimes but make sure you crank the rear up to balance it. It depends on the track to, at Kyalami I think I had front wing at 2 and rear at 5 but at another track like Spielberg this might need cranking up to 8 or so at the rear to have stability in certain corners. If it is swapping ends in the fast corners you need more front wing or less rear wing (or the same adjustments but with ride height.)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Active Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2020
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    118
    Some laps onboard Shadow DN7 Matra v12

    First run after restoration



    Here at Goodwood
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    166
    I still think these things are way to prone to snapping off over crests. I have a great setup for the Lotus 72, but getting it over Skyline is basically a coin toss. Finally just cranked the rear wing way up and made some other tweaks to compensate and it worked out, but I think my other setup was faster. Just something about how these snap on you just feels odd.

    If it's swapping under power you can also try setting the diff to lock more under power. I intentionally have mine set up so it locks hard under acceleration so if it's out of shape coming through an apex I can often smoothly feed throttle and calm it down.
     
  19. Leynad

    Leynad Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    68
    Just tip on the brake before the crest to keep the nose down. This works in every sim and especially needed for Dirt Rally or the Stadium Supertrucks in AMS.
     
  20. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,618
    Likes Received:
    744
    The behaviour over crests in the AMS2 F-Retro is not comparable to DR or Supertrucks. There is something else going on.
    Correct. It feels broken. It doesn't feel like a car losing traction, it reacts totally all over the place as if tyres lose and regain traction too fast and aero is an on&off thing.
     

Share This Page