1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Formula-Retro drivability

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Damian Baldi, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. Leynad

    Leynad Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    68
    I've no problems over this crest at all, because i keep the nose down. And if that's a bug, than it is in every sim I know, because cars with more weight at the rear tend to get light at the front and it's not a good combination during cornering. Btw the real Porsche 956/962 was loosing front-aero over Sprunghügel around Nordschleife, a similar crest where the car is not fully straight. Jochen Mass told Stefan Bellof about that issue, but Bellof was a ****head and crashed there.
     
  2. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    745
    Good for you.^^

    So if it's in every sim you know, why is it behaving different in AMS1 and AC for example?^^ (They can also get lose over crests, but they're not behaving totally crazy, when regaining traction) It's not the "if", it's the "how".
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Leynad

    Leynad Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    68
    I was playing AC over 2k hours and hundreds of hours AMS and crashed thousands times more often in those sims because very strange traction-loss issues due to their simplified tyre-physics that should IMO not happen IRL. But your problem is none, because it's a very simple longitudinal weight-distribution 'issue' that can be easily prevented by keeping the nose down with some trailbraking to keep the front from loosing traction in the first place and upsetting the lateral balance. But you want to climb up those leaderboard and forget that real drivers were not driving like you, because every mistake could've meant death, not just esc+restart. Lauda crashed in the very simple Berkwerk-corner because of similar loosing front-grip+snap-oversteer issues because there is a crest with a corner and he wasn't lifting. With today's cars no problem, because they have a more even balanced longitudinal weight distribution and will never loose front-end grip in this corner. But you still can get similar traction-problems over Quiddelbacher Höhe/Flugplatz or Schwedenkreuz for the same reason and just lifting throttle or sometimes a dip von the brake is needed to keep the nose down.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  4. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    745
    Again: It's not the "if", it's the "how". You're once again trying to make a point about it happening in the first place, instead of "how" it happens.
    I'm not arguing about the car getting lose over crests, i'm just not sure about the way it regains traction.

    Laudas crash investigation btw. was never totally resulting in a clear answer. Could be snap, could be a defective suspension, could be a driving mistake, could be weather...don't you have another YT source with incomplete facts to prove your statement?
     
  5. 250swb

    250swb Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    39


    While the video is about modern sports car aero a similar thing is happening between pitch angle and downforce or neutral aero turning into lift over a crest with any car that's fast enough.

    The other thing to consider is suspension angle when you are landing after the crest, look at photos of the cars at the Nurburgring and all have massive suspension droop when in the air, so in this article scroll down to the effects of bump steer coming down after a crest.

    Chassis Geometry 101: Engineering Speed

    In essence it is no wonder cars cars are skittish over a crest.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    745
    That's a different case of a car, that had a serious design flaw within it's pitch behaviour.

    Also like already mentioned, it's about the behaviour, while regaining traction, not losing it in the first place...
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  7. Leynad

    Leynad Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    68
    I believe what Jochen Mass is saying about both the Lauda and Senna incident, because he should have the best guess from driving those cars. Lauda also never claimed there was a suspension problem afaik. The Senna-incident had a similar issue according to Mass: The tyres were not warm, so big enough after FCY and the downforce was pushing the bottom of the car to the ground resulting in sudden front-wheel grip loss. Uphill over a crest+corner it's the same issue, but for loosing downforce and weight in the front at the same time. Downhill there is no problem at all even there is a crest and a corner, but enough front-grip.
     
  8. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    745
    So Jochen Mass was part of the leading investigation?^^ And Sennas car was comparable to Laudas in aero and suspension workwise, you say? Okay...

    Also Sennas accident investigation never got solved in a clear manner.
     
  9. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    315
    Likes Received:
    166
    I feel like something weird is happening with how the downforce is modeled. I am wondering if their wings are modeled with too much pitch/Angle of Attack sensitivity... which could be counteracted by dabbing the brakes over crests as suggested before. I dont feel like many cars in AMS2 really visibly shift weight forward and back that well, though, so Im not sure on that one.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    745
    I really could't make assumptions to this to be true, neither disagree.

    It's okay as far as the car gets airborne, you lift, or brake a bit before proactively and it's better. It becomes wonky, when it regains traction or shortly before it regains it when driving on edge. More rarely it directly happens directly on the moment of the crest affecting the dynamics, i have the feeling, but this is also more believeable and comprehensible.

    Also it's more severe, when the car is light. This should also be mentioned.
    Are you on a similar pace with more fuel, like your Bathurst Hotlap and how does it feel, then? I have not yet fully pushed on Bathurst, because it was pretty annoying to drive. (The coin toss) :D

    On Spielberg Historic 74 for example, the crest in the second to last corner can be really severe with light fuel, but is not that of a problem (just lift shortly and it's fine) when driven on race fuel.
     
  11. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    745
    To answer this edit:

    This was never under question. Again: It's not the "if", it's about the "how" skittish.

    Things like this...
    niki.jpg

    ...are nearly impossible in AMS2 F-Retro cars (i know, the pic is from the slightly later "airbox removed era"), even with pro-active lifting and brake dip. At the latest, when the tyres touch the ground again. It's indeed not that easy to jump such a light aero car, because having a match between your tyre speed to the moving ground is preferable. It's also true, that suspension geometry is influenced by this.

    Still it feels pretty game-ish and broken and exploity to get around it and not, like natural behaviour. Not the "if"...the "how.
     
  12. Leynad

    Leynad Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    68
    After a crash it's difficult to tell what part was broken before. Jochen Mass was driving/surviving F1-cars for 10 years and later cars like the Porsche 956, Sauber C9 and C11 because he's one of the smartest racers ever. And you should maybe learn some basics about weight distribution.


    And now look at those cars and guess what is keeping the front on the ground on acceleration other than aero, so better don't loose it on the throttle. For me they look more similar to drag-racers than modern formula cars and I'm not wondering about handling issues, but what reasons they had to make this design-choice. I guess that straight-line speed was just more important on the average tracks and they thought, that cars are better if they look like an arrowhead.
     
  13. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    745
    I know Scott Mansells videos, thanks. ;) (Btw. finally a good source)
    You should too, btw. to not being 2-4 seconds off pace on Kyalami in the Retro next time we meet in a test race. ;) (Then maybe i'm more open to be lectured by you :p )
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Leynad

    Leynad Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    68
    I'm driving like a racer who wants to see the checkered flag and picked the wrong car. So far I won most online-races in AMS2.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    745
    Oh yeah, it was the wrong car and you didn't spun in the race, right?^^
     
  16. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    315
    Likes Received:
    166
    The key here is to remember that the whole grid, besides one team, was using the same engine and aero was very primitive by then. Wings were less than 10 years old as a concept on cars. Adding downforce made you faster in the corners, slower on the straights. Everyone has the same engines... how do you get an edge? How do you get more grip on the corners and more speed on the straights?

    There's probably a lot more to this, but I think the key is that the horsepower was pretty much consistent for everyone, so you had things like the Tyrrell 6 wheeler to try to get an edge.

    Also, am I the only one that dislikes Scott Mansell? He just seems so condescending. I did some digging into his actual racing pedigree and I am not really impressed with his qualifications for a guy who cites himself as an authority and brags about his accomplishments. Maybe I should give him another chance, though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    745
    Which btw. was build to increase rear downforce, due to a not obstructed airflow over the fronts to the rear wing by having the front tyres on a similar height, as the front wing instead of being larger. The 4 front tyres were then introduced, to compensate for the smaller fronts in general.
     
  18. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    315
    Likes Received:
    166
    From the designer himself:

    Six appeal - 6 fascinating facts about Tyrrell’s six-wheeler

    Just thought it was interesting.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Leynad

    Leynad Active Member Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2016
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    68
    I agree and when you just google the F1-designs per year, the 1974-versions (AMS2) were the most extreme on difference between front- and rear- tyres and Tyrell made their P34 with two front-axis probably also because of that design-flaw. The Ferrari was more even and with the 75 and following seasons the difference in tyre-diameters front/rear got lesser. It could be, that they choosed the size of the tyres depending on the track-layout as well, since some pictures showing less differences in tyre-diameter from the same season. IMO we don't need better physics for this cars, but cars from a later season that should handle better as well.
     
  20. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    745

Share This Page