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Formula-Retro drivability

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Damian Baldi, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    After reading the discussion, I think a lot of you guys have merits. I have a lot of faith in the tire model and in the physics engine to calculate this stuff well, so whatever it is, it isnt completely off base. I just think something is a little out of balance.

    When cresting a hill, I would expect understeer.... but it seems we get oversteer primarily. I think that's really what confuses me. I could be way off. But it seems like that might feel more intuitive. Do you guys have any rebuttals to that? It happens so quickly it's hard to really tell whats going on.

    Do any other cars in the game do this?
     
  2. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    Oversteer can also happen, if your rear wheels are in contact to the ground differently and the diff begins to make crazy stuff, or the car starts pitching the front more....there are more reasons for sure, why it will not just end in understeer all the time. (Also most over crest snap is happening while turning in the F-Retro, which already means a shift of balance in some way)

    It's is not totally wrong to assume lost of any front authority by losing the front contact patch totally, though. :D
     
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  3. Andy-R

    Andy-R Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Another thing I noticed in the F Retro is that lowering the car seems to give more downforce but without much of a hit to top speed, IIRC it actually made the car faster with the same wing settings at Spielberg. Not sure if this is how it should work or no.
     
  4. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    The Aero and tyre in the newest Beta update has received some tweaks, it seems, so maybe there are things changing or improving soon, who knews.^^

    Btw. do you mean lowering completely or raking it more positive?
     
  5. Andy-R

    Andy-R Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Just slamming it (71mm both ends IIRC.) I tried it in the McLaren at Spielberg 74 and picked up a couple of mph on the straight. I assume positive rake is front down more? If so it is much more negative. I think it provides good downforce as it seemed better in the turns, particularly that long right hander with the crest after the long straight.
     
  6. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    Yeah i meant front down more, sorry...
    You have a lower CoG and the wing can work more efficiently, i would assume. I always learned, the lower you can get away with an aero car without bottoming, the better, some just need more or less rake...the F-Retro doesn't feature a diffuser, but something like the BT44, for example, assumingly uses a Ventury device at the front so could be benefiting there for sure for downforce, no clue about the M23, though. Less rake and generally lower ride height should also benefit top speed, afaik. You are lower, less angle of attack and air goes there, where it is supposed to be, but i'm just guessing.^^
     
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  7. Leynad

    Leynad Active Member Reiza Backer

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    Finally you got it;) There is no way to drive those cars full throttle over a crest during cornering without getting into trouble and it's likely not understeer, since most of the weight is outside and when suddenly front-traction is gone, you are basically driving on one wheel only and this will get most of the torque leading to oversteer.

    At least today it's important for race-cars to have diagonally equal weight distribution, so front left+rear right & front-right+rear-left should be equal in weight. The car gets lifted on four scales for each tyre and balanced out with the suspension travel including the drivers weight. Doesn't sound healthy to upset this balance while driving and think you should get away with that because other sims can handle it:whistle:
     
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  8. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    Then i ask myself, why in the beta update, it's now possible :p (Btw. it happened also on partially throttled cars...) It still upsets balance, going over crests (rightful so), but it doesn't behave crazy anymore.

    Driven the M23 right now on Bathurst in 1.0.0.7, you can attack the Mountain fine now...but yeah...maybe i choose the right car :->

    EDIT: BT44 same...it's a bit more nervous, but totally fine. Normally the small crest on the straight after the first corner already was doing weird things. Now it jumps a bit and you manage it, can be a bit more wonky, but this is down to driving and setup.
    Especially everything around Skyline wants to be attacked now.

    EDIT2:
    Reiza did their job again and i hope it will find its way into the main build soon. It's not an overexaggerated step, it's fine tuning, but whatever screws been driven, they were the right ones. :)

    I have now tried a light qualy Fuel BT44 over the Mountain. This car can be rocketed now, but don't you dare to bottom out. When it goes over crests, it depends on how your rear wing is set and how abruptly you go into corners. It's comprehensible, when pushing, instead of tip-toe-ing. Same vibes, like Oulton Classic for me now. The behaviour in slipstream also varies a bit, but doesn't unsettle the car to a crazy degree.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  9. Leynad

    Leynad Active Member Reiza Backer

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    I've tried the new version and nothing has changed from what I was talking about. Maybe the snap-oversteer comes less sudden now, but I still can't catch it ending in the same result when it happens. The Lotus has a bit more early and manageable power-oversteer now and seems it needs more karting-approach getting the car around. Actually this power-oversteer handling I tried to find in the setup before and wasn't working to my satisfactory. Now you can power out a bit more early and use the rotation.
     
  10. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    Then maybe you were the one, not getting what was meant.^^

    I have no problems with it now.^^ Well, it seems, we were talking about different things :p
    Especially managing rear wing and throttle application now leads to control after driving over a crest while turning. It becomes critical, as soon the rear wing is at 5, but still manageable on the BT44.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  11. 250swb

    250swb Active Member

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    It could depend on if and when when you are taking your foot off the gas at the crest, get it wrong and by the time your car lands or begins to gain grip again the car is going faster than the rear wheels are rotating. The timing of lifting off the throttle over jumps is a key skill in rallying, it's not about being chicken but about controlling the car on landing, and while there are no similar extremes in AMS2 the same principles of air speed, wheel speed, and suspension geometry apply. If anything the crests in AMS2 are too subtle for people to tune reactions to the car going light, if we had the Nordschleife players would soon get the hang of it. One circuit does come to mind though, Cadwell Park and going up 'The Mountain' there is a crest where the throttle control is paramount in any car.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  12. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    And this is totally correct and was never wrong in AMS2.

    It was more of the way, how the tyres were regaining grip themselves. Or perhaps also like aero was/is behaving.

    At their first beta release, for example, the F-Retro class was undriveable on something like Oulton Park Classic on the limit in several areas, especially the BT44 or over the crest at the Interlagos Historic Start/Finish line into the lefthander, no matter how good your throttle control, clutchkick(let's call it clutch application for the better), brake dip and setup were, it was spinning into the lefthand wall without recovery options. After a very fast hotfix by Reiza, they felt way better and began to be fun as hell.

    This has improved more and more and IMO is also still improving.

    To maybe give an optimistic perspective on something looking forward to, because the F-Retro will receive tweaks for the next main build. No sorcery or magic stability control. Just tiny tweaks on the exactly right places. IMO (if this is considered to be leaking or smth. btw. i delete it)


    I and i assume also nobody else here meant, that jumping or going over crests with these cars should be without any effect on stability and syncing wheels to ground speed is also recommended. Like mentioned, it's not the "if", it was the "how".
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  13. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Active Member Reiza Backer

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    (pc issues fixed I think. So)
    I plan to test these beasties online over the next few days on Beta Historic tracks after the last update.
    Late night (uk after 10.30pm) may run with 1 or more Ai set high (for you fast guys) to note any improvements or not with them
    Dry
    All are welcome.
    Open lobby and setup. (If interested and have track preference let me know)
    Feedback on these cars from Ethan the race driver has gone quiet but I will email him again soon. I know he is busy
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  14. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    Ah btw.:
    His track guides and tutorials helped me gaining 2 seconds in pace, back then, when i made the transition from GTR2 to AMS1...not even joking. I basically learned better trail braking and a basic understanding of the traction circle by his videos. (I was doing some things severely wrong for over 10 years, not kidding). It is no magical recipe to turn someone into an eSports Alien, but you get some capabilities "unraveled".

    This was in a time, when the Driver61 channel wasn't even that popular yet and had no sim focus at all, i'm such a hipster, i know :D :D

    But he doesn't seem condescending to me at all, never got the impression so far :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  15. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    It's not like all of us haven't gone airborne at Flugplatz in nearly every other racing sim. Some of us may be better than others, but I dont think the behavior of the F-Retro cars in AMS2 is typical in any other sim, and it's not even typical of the cars in AMS2.
     
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  16. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    Getting airborne at Flugplatz also unsettles the BT44 in rF2 pretty much, but it catches itself better. I almost suspect, because it's more reactive on the front in this sim so you can catch it by wheel, instead by pedals.
    Wait for the 1.0.0.7. build, maybe it's already more satisfying. (IMO it is :) )
     
  17. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Active Member

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    Even the group-c cars jumps if the speed and crest are high enough. The Porsche 962 have 15000N of downforce but at Lime Rock you have to release the throttle to avoid jumping like in the picture.

    Another thing is how the car must jump and land. Jumptheysaid.JPG
     
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  18. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    Just to clarifiy: It's not debated about "if" they jump, it would be totally unrealistic, to not see them do so.

    The F-Retro class in 1.0.0.3 are just, what i would call a bit sensitive when regaining grip and aero efficiency. No matter how realistic it might be. And this has IMO changed a bit for the beta build right now. No huge differences IMO, very subtle, but it now behaves better, when the cars are lighter and you will not lose the car over slight dips (i don't even mean crests), even if you were full throttle, because it catches "itself" a bit better.^^

    The impression of "confidence" is better. :) So this discussion about the drivability could maybe soon again shift to the bad turn-in :D :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  19. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    The turn in doesn’t bother me as much anymore. A loose coast side on the diff and aggressively trail braking will steer it pretty well. Not necessarily elegantly, but they will turn. I can’t believe how much better they turn now than in V1.0.0.0
     
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  20. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    Yeah, it also doesn't make me wanting to rip out my hair and eat it anymore, since the last tweaks and the improvements on pedalling these things are pretty fine. It was just the first major "issue", that was noticeable with them. :D
     
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