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Formula-Retro drivability

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Damian Baldi, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    I agree but when I was using the geared diff this behavior disappeared. The car drives so much better with a differential that allows for some actual differentiation. You can drive around it, but we shouldn’t have to.
     
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  2. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    I havent seen much in terms of retros in latest update so I assume still drives the same? (havent had a chance to try retro yet today)
     
  3. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence CrimsonCringeLord Reiza Backer

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    Has improved. LSD also shows more unlocking in tight turns.
    Still not completeley there, where it could be, but better IMO.
     
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  4. Apex

    Apex Member

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    I agree.

    I've noticed there's actually a very subtle warning now before the most deadly and irrecoverable high-speed oversteer in corners like Tamburello and most corners on the classic Silverstone.
     
  5. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    I did some more testing today. the Mclaren M23 feels fantastic, but it's slow. It just drives really nice the way I have it set up. Best time I've gotten at Bathurst (kind of a worst case scenario with the crests and the intolerance to understeer, so that's my testing ground) The Lotus 72 feels like an absolute mess over the crests, but it's fast.

    Using clutch diff:
    Lotus best time: 2m00.3
    Mclaren best time: 2m00.9

    Previous times using geared diff:
    Lotus best time: 1m57.9
    Mclaren best time: 1m58.9

    Those times are from memory, but I was kind of surprised how well they lined up... I cant even get close to my old times. All about the diff tuning, but I think as it sits currently it still takes too much breakaway torque to get it to loosen. Theres a DEFINITE improvement. The cars FEEL better on turn in... but the times just arent there, and I can tell you exactly why. With the geared diff, the car has extremely snappy turn in, it almost WANTS to turn. With the clutched diff, the amount of torque needed to get the diff to break is FAR lower, which makes it actually tolerable to drive, but the breakway point is still too high. You can feel the breakaway point pretty easily if you go into a corner like T1 at Bathurst or Tosa at Imola 72. The car fights you and loads up tension in the tires until all of a sudden it will gladly turn.

    Im running preload at 10-30Nm, and ramp angles in the 60-89 range, with 2-4 clutches.

    I hope they keep working on it. These cars are so much fun when you nail a corner exit just right, and the thing just bounces, and the tires load and unload and you get the four wheel drift just perfect. I love it. They are going to be the best F1 cars in the game if they ever manage to fix the insane cresting problem and the initial diff bite.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  6. Apex

    Apex Member

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    I never got to try the Retros with the clutched diff, so I really can't tell. The latest update made a difference for sure, but I'm still struggling with corner-exit, especially in the 72. That jumpy rear reminds me a bit of the 78 in PC2 that I've never quite found a way to tame.

    My real life experience is limited to a bit of karting, and I've never even seen a vintage F1 car, so what do I know, but I just feel these cars had to be a bit more manageable or there'd been far more spins and shunts in the 70s. Or maybe the cars really were a riot and the drivers were just very, very good.
     
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  7. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    The clutch diff is the default diff. You have no choice but to use it now. It was the default before, too, but you had the option to change it to a geared diff, is that what you mean?

    And i totally agree, with most cars the struggle should be to drive quickly on the limit, but they should not be this hard. If they were they would go back to the drawing board to fix it. And it's in such specific situations that they get wildly out of hand, too. If these cars were that hard to drive, no one would have ever driven them.

    But as long as the ground is flat, they're a blast, and I think they feel amazingly good... It's just the initial turn in that's so frustrating when you exclude the crest situation.
     
  8. Apex

    Apex Member

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    Ah yes, I meant the geared diff!

    Interestingly I'm not having trouble with crests or initial turn, and I can even manage a bit of trailbreaking, but it's the corner exit and some times high-speed corners that kill me.

    During the weekend I was testing with preloads in the 100-150 range, 4-6 clutches and 75-80 degrees under power, and it seems to work pretty well at Imola '72 and Spielberg '74 but definitely not at Silverstone '75.

    And I agree. From anecdotes, interviews, books and footage from the races back then, I'd expect these cars to be fairly easy to drive for leisure but difficult and somewhat dangerous to drive competitively fast.
     
  9. Dale Ballweg

    Dale Ballweg New Member

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    Following this discusion, I don't have your in depth knowlege but I do agree with your conclusions. The cars are much better with this update but not quite there yet. You still can't attack certain corners no matter what you change in the setup. It's such a different issue too, generally it's the high speed corners that give me the most trouble where you really have to concentrate to hit it just perfect or the car will break away. That in itself is strange for the car to break loose when you have the car generating the maximum amount of downforce at that time. On a good note it's nice to note that they realize there is something wrong and hopefully won't give up on it. The M23, BT44 and the Formula Retro cars are the main reason I bought the mod.
     
  10. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    These cars are light with a lot of power, you should have to fight it on corner exit. It should buck around and squirm. Frankly, I think it's incredibly fun and feels amazing in these, especially seeing the suspension articulate.

    Regarding the diff settings, set it as loose as possible (preload zero, clutches 2, ramps at 89), and try to go through Tosa. Then set it as tight as possible, and try to go through Tosa... You may be able to notice that point where suddenly the diff starts allowing independent rotation (I refer to it as breakaway, but it's not the same as when the car flies off the track in Tamburello for example) and it will turn eagerly... but you have to fight it for a moment first. It feels unnatural to me, and it's 100 percent in the diff because the geaed diff didn't do that. But Im hoping someone else can verify they feel what Im talking about.

    Have they acknowledged this somewhere?

    M23 and BT44 are included in the base game, but they're the reason I bought the track pack, because I want those sweet historic tracks! M23 right now handles better than the Lotus, I just cant get it to go as quickly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  11. Dale Ballweg

    Dale Ballweg New Member

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    I'm just assuming they are working on it, it certainly feels different then it did before the latest update. I'd be massively disappointed if they aren't working it.
     
  12. Apex

    Apex Member

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    Somehow I feel we can't truly evalute how these cars behave before we get the up-coming Nordschleife track.

    You get to go uphill, downhill, over crests and jumps as well as through left-handers and right-handers of all quirky sorts and combinations.

    I think it'll be the ultimate test for these cars, or for any class for that matter.
     
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  13. GregzVR

    GregzVR Active Member

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    Interlagos '76 is a pretty good test for now, too.
     
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  14. 250swb

    250swb Active Member

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    Well, no. Jim Clark set his car up to push through understeer out of corners so he could get on the throttle earlier. And we've been though this before on the forum. The idea they are default wild bucking beasts is absurd because wild bucking beasts are slow. All cars from whatever era are difficult on the limit, but that limit is where drivers try to tame their cars, not earlier when they are easy to drive, and not later when they become undrivable.
     
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  15. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    there’s a difference between unstable and having more power than traction. Wild bucking beasts is not what I am thinking of. What i am thinking of is a lightweight car than can break traction easily at low speed under acceleration. You are talking about something else. I actually agree with you on your point, and I think these cars actually drive really predictably outside of particular peculiar quirks.
     
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  16. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    Had a go at the retros today see how it feels, reset to default setups, looks like they have reduced preload a lot and bumped up the coast angle.

    And it still has the horrendous understeer in slow corners, modern Hockenheim is a good place to test this :) it just doesnt turn in until you get down to 40-50 Kmh. The its like a flip of a switch and it starts turning.
     
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  17. Apex

    Apex Member

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    With almost one horsepower per kilogram weight and huge rear wheels, I'd expect these cars to be a handful coming out of slow corners.

    What I don't really get is the odd combination of stiffness and wobbliness that may or may not be a characteristic of Reiza's take on the Madness Engine as such, the specific cars, my setups or my driving style.

    I find it very difficult to balance throttle input with wheel input coming out of slow corners, where I get loads of understeer near the apex and erratic oversteer through the first couple of gears. It's like the car is sort of locked in a peculiar sideways push that I can only remedy by going straight for a split second.

    There's some alleviation in the fact that the AI drivers consistently shunt these cars too in the same type of corners. Either they have to learn it too, or there are actually some minor issues with the cars. I'm sure, however, that Reiza will keep evaluating and fine-tuning things, and it'll be very interesting to follow the title coming of age.
     
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  18. BrunoB

    BrunoB Active Member

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    Good description.
    There is something weird going on in slow corners - and this is absolutely not a behaviour ANY RL car would copy.
    In a lot of the cars(all?) in AMS2 there is this sudden understeer midcorner even if you keep your controller inputs stable.
    Hehe and even if you in as example a high grip formula car (F-Reiza or F-V10-G1) are taken a corner with a speed of 80-100km/H.

    ByTheWay: Even in my long time dead grandmas old Cortina I could easily go faster than some of Reizas Formula cars are able to. And without spinning the AMS2 way :rolleyes:

    EDIT: You can easily check it out in this corner in as example the 2 formula cars I did mention.
    Pirouette time :D

    Silverstone 2018.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  19. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    I agree it's like a switch gets flipped on and off at low speed where suddenyl the car will turn, and then it very suddenly and abruptly locks back up under power. This behavior isnt there with the geared diff. Hence why I am so fired up about the diff situation.

    You can mitigate it to some extent running a very loose diff, but I still think it's not loose enough even at low settings. I currently am running 10Nm of preload, 2 clutches, and a 45 power ramp and an 89 coast ramp. I usualyl like a diff that's really tight on the power side, so it locking back up under acceleration is something Im used to and prefer, but if you're not used to that it will make it difficult to control. To me the red flag is the off throttle turn in behavior and how it will suddenly be willing to turn. This same thing absolutely reverses itself on corner exit, but to an extent that can be desirable.

    There is erratic behavior in corners, in my opinion due to the diff, absolutely.
     
  20. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    yes.
    And its rediculous that you would have to run such extreme diff setting even if it helped, it just shows its broken right now.

    Maser already said accordinf to the real driver the coast setting on retros isnt really too loose and they even use more clutch plates as they wear down.
     

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