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Formula-Retro drivability

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Damian Baldi, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    re. The Supercup - I dont think thats true, before the update, setting 0Nm viscous lock has 100% fixed the annoying high speed understeer for me. And I could download a bootleg ams2 before the update and make a video but I dont think I want to spend the time on this anymore tbh, especially if Renato says all is good and well.
     
  2. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    You can think this, but it's not the truth. Viscous lock is gone for this car, it was checked today again!

    Please read my note to the GT4 Supercup again, because it is a significant thing, that has changed.
     
  3. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    Ah sorry I didnt read that other post yet.

    I know its not there, but its still odd that the car feels like when lock was 100Nm :-/ strange ...
     
  4. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    It's not odd. Diff workwise is also influenced by tire grip - when tire grip changes, it can mess up some things there and the same setup can become totally different.

    I would wait for further tweaks for now, that will come with a complementary update. You don't need to think, that it isn't investigated, but the cause often has some totally different origins, than we think. (Example: I don't even want to start, how wrong some of my conclusions were about several things, when it came to the differential back then, when every car was a spool in the game)
     
  5. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    Ok thanks.
    I just had a quick go at Supercup again and it actually is now similar to retro-F feel.
    Its a pretty easy test - when I setup the LSD to 0Nm preload and about 80 coast ramp angle with 2 clutches, it will understeer massively on turn in at about 100kmh ... but as soon as I nudge the wheel at 75Kmh, I rotate around my own axis instantly :D as it should kinda with those diff settings.... so yes, it might not be a diff issue per se, but there is definitely something wrong. And Supercup was just a concidence that I tested recently, it feels the same this way in old Formula cars.
     
  6. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    I think the issue that I have also noticed throughout the development of AMS 2 at various times with various cars is that there is sometimes a perception of tire grip changing in an irregular manner as speed changes. It affects our brain when the car is sliding when we expect more grip (from aero) at higher speeds, or when the car has too little grip and under steers at low speeds relative to what it does at higher speeds, etc. There are these moments that some ninnies try to pin on a fundamental flaw in the Madness Engine, but we know they can be fixed (and sometimes then un-fixed in another update).

    The transition between grip states at various speeds seems to be not always as smooth as it should be, which can result in the example above with the 100 km/h vs. 75 km/h differences. It could be tire grip; it could be the effect of aero; it could be contributed to by diff; but somewhere in the mix there are changes happening on "too steep a curve" or in a stair-step manner instead of a smoother line/ curve, or maybe also some interactive effect(s) that throws us for a loop.

    It is not always wrong...but it is good to note these perceptions/discrepancies so that the modelling can be checked and double-checked because often there is something that doesn't agree in the end.

    The F-Retros with the significantly mismatched front and rear tires presents a more difficult modelling exercise than most. In a simpler simulation model, the front versus rear grip can be manipulated much more easily than in AMS 2. But, when it finally clicks into place, the AMS 2 result is so much better :)
     
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  7. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Also it needs to be mentioned, that the tires of the SETA TM have quite a bit more travel, that adds to the suspension, also messing with values, that worked fine in AMS1.

    So it's not specifically a tire thing in such a case, but actually the whole suspension, that also includes the tires and causing some notable differences.
     
  8. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    I agree, but why would the diff coast setup stop affecting the car almost all together above 80kmh? Thats why its all so confusing to me and virtually NO other sim does this.
     
  9. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Internal Tester AMS2 Club Member

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    Because it wasn't/isn't just the coast setting of the diff. It is some other (combination likely) thing(s).
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
  10. Shadak

    Shadak Active Member

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    Ok lets say it isnt. But why is my diff settings causing the car behaving differently below and above this speed threshold? When I setup the diff to what I would expect it to be as it is above 80 right now, it would behave the same below 80, I know that for a fact (because its very close to default).

    So why after changing things, the car only uses my changed diff settings below 80 :) Dont tell me all cars only accept different settings below 80.
    Granted, people dont normally do these things, especially with diff, they take the default setup and use it. But I can tell you there is quite a lot of cars that will do this if I go and test it.

    EDIT:
    Actually, i briefly tried Mclaren GT1 and same thing, with very open diff settings, above 100 all is nice and relatively balanced or even understeery. But around 80 its maximum oversteer. Why? :)
     
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  11. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Tires are not solid, they change their contact patch all the time. When tires spin faster they also will change their shape differently, also conected to how much they're able to stick... add suspension and aero to this, changing the load that occurs in addition to that and it can totally change the impressions. The diff will also react to that and if it is triggered easier in lower gears/speeds/etc. it will also additionally add some torque vectoring, when already being unlocked by other factors.

    It's a combination of things and these things are always subject for improvements...
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
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  12. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    Too many 'informatives', 'agree' or whatevers to list or quotes, to all you chaps but interesting, and maybe some consensus it seems and from what's been said noted by discussed inc RS.
    Thanks in advance, I will have to try myself.
    meantime have fun.
     
  13. ozcanuck

    ozcanuck Active Member

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    I'm no expert, so most of whats discussed in here is Greek to me, but that quote helped me immensely.Shift down, keep the revs up and the BT44 goes around corners like its on rails. Speilberg Historic is awesome in this car. Thanks for the tip.
     
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  14. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    As for the cornering style Stirling always said slow in fast out and for the most part that may be the case personally I watched RL and seen differences and winners as a result. 4 and 2 wheels.



    .
    Tried the BT44 last night briefly and the car imo I would not describe as 'broken' I would say first impression in this build (defaulf) it has yes slight less grip on front but nothing compare to 1125, but also a little less on rear, and is soggy ' which it was before.
    This build resulting in actually for me a better overall balance though it is slower.
    With default and bump stops as mentioned being 0 still drivable.
    I used to stiffen all round a lot and lower stops anyhow, so by raising stops to 4 with a stiff suspension and lower Car seems better balanced all round for me mostly because when I lift off throttle the car actually responds with retardation almost immediately which it never did till recent lowering that lag has in itself improve the car. It is a little snappy oversteer at low speed imo but adjusting diff from default will help
    At this quick look I would agree with for gen 1 bt44
    @InfernalVortex
    hi Infernal just a Q yours koalas and Bm time Spa Historic were they before or after USA pack.
    Thanks

    Docs folder was wiped days ago ref the TC/ABS post from somebody about gte Porsche.
    Some say deletion it makes no difference others have confirmed after complaining this week that it cured the issues/complaint so this area still differs from pc/pc person to person perception /experience felt.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  15. bmerrell

    bmerrell Member

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    @Maser V6 which car are you referencing for Spa Historic? I don't think I've set any times on the Spa TT board since the USA pack dropped, but I could be forgetting something.
     
  16. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    HI B. probably before USA, just thought I would check for reference
    and see what its like now.
    Thanks
     

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  17. bmerrell

    bmerrell Member

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    I believe I set that time sometime around early- or mid-April.
     
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  18. Maser V6

    Maser V6 Assume nothing._ Verify everything._Have fun AMS2 Club Member

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    Worth viewing
     
  19. BrunoB

    BrunoB TT mode tifosi BANNED

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    Your reasoning sounds quite logical - and if you are right (and I think you are) then the experienced anomaly could point to an issue in AMS2 - instead of being explained away as some kind of butterfly effect involving all more complicated systems.:whistle:
     
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  20. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Or maybe you just don't make assumptions on things, you have no insight of? :whistle:

    ByTheWay:
    Things aren't always as easy, as you guys might think, they are. if you think, it's logical, i'm open to hear, what the issue might be! :)

    ByTheWay2:
    Nothing is explained away here. The origin of "issues" is just not always, what you are concluding.

    P.S.: Why no by the way this time?? :D
     
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