Formula-Retro drivability

Well, after v1.0.0.2 I feel a change on the cars for the good. I'm driving the v12 mostly but I have been driving the Brabham too, plus a few laps with the McLaren.

Now the cars feels more connected with the track. I found a better suspension setup too and keep the 2-8 aero configuration. In general, a better balance driving on the edge as it must be.

EDIT: to correct horrible syntaxis

 

Yeah I can’t prove that the cars feel different, but I did get the distinct feeling of the tires loading up today after regaining traction, not sure I’ve noticed it that clearly before. I am applying the same wild setup guesses to all the f-retro cars to get them to turn in, but the Brabham confuses me because you can’t add front downforce....

 

I noticed in the hotfix notes for 1.0.0.2:

"Reduced F-Retro aero yaw sensitivity (all models)"

I wonder if this was part of our snap oversteer at high speed issue?

 

(SH Has good knowledge of diff setups)

Without a doubt thankfully others have noticed to. Be better all round If more people can run with these bad boys. liking the Brabhams power curve, May just run a few races get some miles in the seat then go back to tt default testing Only tried 2 tracks so far!!! let along any wet stuff
May run some online test races after 10 tonight

 

I spent some time tonight in various F-Retro cars... I really want to figure out how to get the V12 to work well for my driving style because that V12 really sounds amazing. But try as I may, I cant get that one to work well for me at all. But they all feel so much better than the did on day 1! I can still get them to snap over on me, but I can drive around it, and Im guessing that aero yaw sensitivity adjustment gives more cornering grip in general, so the understeer isnt as bad as it was either.

At Imola, I'm fastest with the 72E, then the Mclaren, then the Brabham, then the V12. I didnt bother with the F-Retro V8 since I figure it's just the V12 that doesn't sound as cool I'll have to mess around with setups and consistency more, but I think the Mclaren is the best feeling car of the bunch to me. I am curious to see which one ends up being the fastest.

And maybe Im just not cultured enough to notice, but I cant really feel a difference in the power curves of any of the V8 cars...? I really wish they'd fix the driver body model in the Mclaren, though. It's such a fantastic looking and driving car with that awesome suspension arrangement! And then you see the legs going through the seat. Wish they'd fix that on the Formula Vintage models too.

 

Ethan has kindly responded ref the diff setup in the Brabham and other retro cars. This is an extract from his reply.
What I would like from the forum to help us all understand these cars is a short list of questions that he should be able to help us with given his experience.
Please keep it simple.
Extract:

Hello David,
I’d be happy to help. The BT44, like many of the F1 cars of that era, uses a Salisbury style differential. (The Hewland trademarked name is Powerflow.) This style of diff uses ramp angles, number of friction faces (from 2 to 6), and preload on those friction faces to adjust handling balance. You can tune almost infinitely; how the car feels under braking, corner entry, throttle tip in, heavy throttle application, etc etc.

The other style used by F1 cars of that era is called a cam and pawl. This is a non-adjustable style of diff; usually they lock up pretty hard upon power application which can result in power on understeer in all but the most powerful cars. These were used a lot on stomp and steer courses (street courses mainly, or anywhere where the corners were short radiused and tight).
My job as a mechanic also involves a lot of testing of cars for clients, and coaching work so I have driven a wide selection of the 3 litre era F1 cars: Tyrrell’s, March’s, Brabham’s, Ferrari’s, BRM’s, Williams’, Penske’s, VPJ Parnelli’s, etc etc.
So what would you like to know?
Ethan"
Replies Qs this thread
Thanks

 

Sorry to harp on about Imola 1972 but it’s my 1970’s F1 track of choice for sims. Imola 72 was a low downforce track. The only way I can keep the McLaren on the track at the long curved straights and also from taking off going up the hill and back down the hill after the first hairpin is to have rear ride height to the max, front down force on Two and rear down force on Eight. That’s the opposite of low downforce last I checked. I’ve also changed steering rotation to Twenty Five. This set up keeps the McLaren from twitching on the long curved straights and makes it manageabley twitchy going up and down the hill after the first hairpin. But I’m losing so much speed and excitement down the start finish straight to the first hairpin. Applying this to to the Brabham, which you can’t fully as their is no adjustable front wing option for it, the Brabham still twitches and spins out on the long curved straights and takes off up and down the hill. After two laps in the McLaren, the tyres and brakes heat up and it drives almost as well as the RF2 versions. It’s so frustrating because these cars look and sound better than RF2, Imola 72 is beautiful in AMS 2 and it has all the potential to be one of the best ever combos in sim racing! I hope they get the retro formulas finished and driving as wonderfully as the RF2 versions. If they do, it will be mind blowing and worth the purchase price alone !

 

Ahh, I just had a race at Kyalami Historic, with the issue seemingly fixed, but I thought that was due to me tweaking the setup drastically, but it looks like it could've been fixed by default. I gotta test it again, lol.

 

...

 

No need for that much downforce. More clutch plates (6) and more locking (less degrees power) helps to keep the car stable in fast corners. Just did a P2 in Time Trial both with the Brabham and Lotus. Brabham on 6 aero and Lotus on 2/5. The P1-guy had more downforce, but in a race he couldn't pass me in the corner sections.

And who is saying, you have to go full throttle down the corner? I was listening to interviews of former race-car drivers and in the 917k they were all too afraid to go full throttle down the Mulsanne Straight, so I expect that they eased off the throttle in fast corners like Imola. Senna died in this corner for going full throttle 20 years later. The most successful were also the bravest, but only the smartest survived like Fittipaldi, Lauda, Mass, Stewart.

 

REF throttle

This is an extract from a paid racing driver of these historic beast (Ethan in the video) who has just informed me for sharing insight into these cars.
Quote
"The driver is 100% the most important integer in these cars. There is almost never a point where you are committed to power hard and just steering (except maybe Elkhart, the Glen, Paul Ricard, etc). At tracks like Brands Hatch, Laguna Seca, St Jovite, etc you spend an immense amount of time modulating throttle. There’s no data on the cars to back this up, but I would estimate that Elkhart my WOT percentage per lap is something like 70% and at Laguna it’s probably less than 30%. Now, those numbers might be off but I feel confident in the difference between the two to illustrate my point."

Ethan is kindly sharing his experience with the cars and a summary our discussion will follow at some point. inc tips on setup for the real cars which should help here

 

Thats interesting. So it might be that AMS2 does it right and some other sims where I could go WOT a LOT of times in BT44 are a bit further from realism.

 

This is Ethan with the car owner
time to fire up pc,, seems lake ages ago.

 

I cant get over how good these cars are feeling now that I got Karsten Hvelberg's "Silver" FF and gotten used to them a little more. I really have no idea what Im doing with the setups. I kind of just throw things at it until it goes faster or is easier to drive, but they really are feeling very nice now.

If we are talking Time Trial at Imola 72, P1 guy at this time is probably me. I actually dropped the df quite a bit now, I think it 2/7 or 2/6, and I went a little faster, although not much. The max df settings were from day 1 when the cars were just snapping off the track all the time and massively understeered the rest of the time. I am still afraid to drop too much rear df in case the thing starts snap oversteering on me going into Tosa or the Rivazzas... I feel like there's a lot more time there for a better driver but I'm getting close to my limits.

You arent kidding. For a similar effort lap I find Im about 1.5-2s off the pace with this one. It's a shame because it sounds absolutely amazing. I am amazed at Damian Baldi's ability to wring the performance he does out of it on the TT boards. Amazing. It definitely seemed easier to drive it normally... but trying to get it to go fast is frustrating and a lesson in torturing yourself.

I think the 72E is still my favorite so far. The M23 seems to handle a little better, but I cant match my 72E times at Imola 72. I need to try some other more well-rounded tracks and see how they compare in more diverse scenarios. I have random sectors that are significantly faster in the BT44, but I just cant get comfortable enough to string together whole laps. It's definitely a little more challenging to figure out. Nice to know my impressions more or less line up with yours. Makes me think Im picking up on the right things!

Also, the marbles make anything off line super slippery sometimes. Is that why you say it's peculiar off line? The only thing I find unintuitive with these at this point is just how much mechanical grip they have at the rear. You can really yeet the rear end out and just stomp the throttle and it'll hook it and book it.

 

I've tended to find that any snap oversteer moments are either explained by the rear suspension bottoming out (the default setup runs a lot of bump stops) or the lumpy power delivery of the Cosworth DFV.

And of course, crests and dips, but the beauty of cars like this is that you really need to learn a circuit, every bump camber and crest. You can do so much with differential work but ultimately the driver makes the difference.

The default setups in the cars I have driven so far (Lotus and McLaren) are not very friendly at all and I am not sure what track they are based on. I have had to do quite a lot of work to get the cars feeling to my taste. My setup direction differs quite alot between the Lotus and the McLaren, the Lotus lacks the aero stability and has to be driven in much more of a 1960's style, while the McLaren feels like more of a modern 1974 machine!

IRL the McLaren and Brabham were both quicker than the Lotus 72E, which by 74/75 was an outdated design. It's a shame that the TT board put them all together.

 

Very informative and interessting thread!
I'm happy that they are back and so I did some testing, too.
I've to say, the driving is good and as already written in this thread, it takes some laps till the front tires are heated up and have enough grip, otherwise there is the well-known understeering.
As others already mentioned, I also prefer geared LSD with a high power rate and a low - middle coast rate. Also I stiffen the ARB. By the way, that's the same as I do with the vintage.
With these basically changes, I get a good driveable car.

But have you ever tried to drive in rain?
I did, in light rain, with rain tires, catastrophic! (as with the vintage!) With every other car, with slicks in thunderstorm, it's more or less controlable (driving slow an carefully). But with the Retro / Vintage, it's like driving with unprofiled tires (slicks) in mud. Absolutely without any control. And the most strange thing is, it musn't be a wet or flooded track, it begins with the first drop comming out of sky. Suddenly it's undriveable. I don't understand if and what I'm doing wrong , with any other car, I'm able to drive in rain!

 

BT44 was a 1974 model. 72E came out in 1973, and the M23 in the game was a 1973 car. I think they're all a reasonably good match for each other.

I dont know I find the rain driving to be a miserable experience in every car I've tried.

 

The car may have changed since beta with regards to wet driving but it seemed okay back then. I tried a sync to race session with storm>rain>rain>light rain in test day but I recon it skipped straight to light rain (even though it looked stormy) as no puddles built up and after a while I switched from wets to slicks and went 2 seconds a lap faster with rain coming down. I tried real time storm afterwards (puddles everywhere) and it was pretty tricky but driveable.