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Formula-Retro drivability

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by Damian Baldi, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    What do you guys think about this?

     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
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  2. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    The misconception, we saw, also based on the Ethan reports by @Maser V6 is, that they were totally "manhandling" these cars, without and type of "Fingerspitzengefühl" and finesse. You have to invest some filigree, to be fast in any of these cars, they're still formula cars, even if lacking of a diffuser. A smooooth line and flow based approach will benefit with all of them, but the V12 has to definetly get some extra attention.
    Same here. This is a beast and it talks to me...all the time.
    The M23 feels better on Kyalami for me, as long, as you really push. The Lotus has some disadvantage in the slower parts, IMO.
    Also here, like mentioned by the real driver input, it's the driver and drivers preference. I think, some impressions may differ very strong for some people.
    You can see the video of the BT44 sideways with diff issues here in this thread. That's how it feels like there. But it's not happening all the time. Just from time to time.
    That's not everytime the fastest, though, because you get some overrotation, even if you don't notice it that much. Especially the Lotus and the M23 are IMO communitcating it often, that it's better to roll on the throttlepedal, instead out of slower and mid fast corners.
    I will try, if tweaks on suspension will change something. Bumpstops can also influence pitch behaviour really strong in AMS2. Changing rebound and bump was already tried by me and sometimes it's better to increase values by one click, to stop something from oscillation in suspension, but it could also give more energy to your tires at some point, which makes driving sometimes a bit more tricky.
    It's still worth to mention, that my impression of losts over crests, with BT44 for example, were not feeling "natural", but completely out of place. Don't forget. that these cars were Nordschleife approved. Lifting at every slight dip, that is trying to kill you, is not, what a suspension should be for. And i have tried several approaches :D more ARB and Spring are the most successfull. Dampers help over normal bumps. But dips, elevations and crests stay overly problematic on full edge.
    They're also in AMS2 on several tracks. But when it comes to straightline and fast corner performance, you can push the Lotus very good to brilliant speed.
    Yes, i have driven a dry race, that switched to light rain and it's indeed twitchy but in the same time restrictive to their agility. It has still the same characteristics of each car, but the limit is reduced and reached earlier. Maybe too early, i have no clue. The tyres of this time weren't the best :D
    You have to be smooth.
    Everything is showing, you can't "manhandle" these cars at this amount, like we would expect. But you can still attack corners, instead of babying them, like it was in their first Beta release. (BTW. i was driving the totally not BT44 in AMS1 A LOT and it's fastest way around the track was indeed being smooth and patient). Same for Assetto Corsa btw.. Smoothness and patience is rewarded. Even if these cars animate to go into overdrive mode over 11. :D
     
  3. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I think he should set sensitivity to 50, like intended, or even less and not lock up the car...

    That's what happens, if you overdrive. Overcooking into corners is pretty forgiving in racing sims in general and i register this, with even basically just rental kart and a few vehicles (not even sports cars) real life experience.

    But it's happening very fast, you restrict your turn in on brakes, that's why i set my brake pressure to 75% in AMS2 and my brake pedal to 40 sensitivity...
    AMS2 can indeed feel odd, sometimes...like on&off, instead of "nature".
     
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  4. Micropitt

    Micropitt Mediocre driver doing mediocre laps AMS2 Club Member

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    Last night I drove the Lotus, Mclaren and Brabham in Brands Hatch. It actually went really well and was lots of fun. Treating the Throttle pedal and Brake pedal with lots of love did the trick for me :p
     
  5. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    1. Brake sensitivity to 50? I run it at 90... seems fine to me. Wouldnt you lose a lot of braking performance if you set it to 50?

    2. What do you mean you "restrict your turn in on brakes"?

    3. I feel like in the vid, he's got the weight loaded forward and turning and the car turns until it exceeds the grip of the tires, then it goes to where momentum is taking the car. That makes sense. What is odd is that I do feel like the back end should break away at some point in that process. But I also know that I intentionally brake very hard while turning to get the car to rotate and there are definitely times the rear end has come around on me (Acque Minerali I'm looking at you!), but thats with a very loose coast side diff setting. Even with a more typical coast diff setting I dont think the car should snap back to straight, seems like it should snap around and spin.
     
  6. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    I mean sensitivity in the controls menu, not pressure in the setup!
    He is writing, he has every sensitivity in the controller settings at 100, what is not the default.
    Btw. the same sliders can make and break feel of a simulation or any racing game...
    Codemasters F1, for example, with its linerarity and sensitivity stuff can hardly influence the car handling, even make it better. Strange, but a very important factor.
    I mean, that AMS2 lets wash you out into corners a lot. Weight shift needs more attention.


    That's why i think AMS2 is restrictive to turn in under strong braking. Cars tend more to rotate under light braking there. (That point is comprehensible). I also think, that the full locking brakes in AMS2 are weird sometimes. It basically restricts the car immediatly from doing anything, inclusevly losing itself and spinning, when happening in the straight or light turning.(That isn't that comprehensible).
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
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  7. shrapnel

    shrapnel New Member

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    I am not that sure, without looking at telemetry (is there any for AMS2?) whether any of these cars generate significant enough overbody aero load to make high speed pitch sensitivity as much of an an issue as it is in more heavily aero focused cars. Whilst I've tended to maintain a healthy rake, the medium speed aero load is so low that the suspension setup is far more crucial with management of yaw on power over crests.

    Management of the cars performance over crests needs to be managed really by working the available travel, allied to spring strength and good slow damper setup. In AMS2 the Lotus 72E default setup had 11mm bump stops all round which limits the available suspension travel.

    In terms of realism and accuracy, IRL the 72 uses torsion bars with a custom linkage, which gave the suspension rising rate characteristics, a design created to prevent bottoming on heavy tanks. The dampers used on the car, according to the suspension design docs (Lotus part no. 72-2031), fully extend at 13.20 inches with a compressed length of 9.25 inches, leaving 3.95 inches of throw (almost 10cm). Digging up a setup sheet here it looks like no bump rubbers were used on that particular test, but this was for a modern historic event on more modern tyres. I've really no idea if any of this accuracy is reproduced in AMS2.

    Personally I have found that I have softened springs and reduced bump stops in all of my work with the M23 and 72E, the defaults seem far stiffer than a beginner in the cars would want. It's possible as one grows in experience then maybe stiffening up a little more will be the case, but I'd say I would need 15-20 hours of seat time before feeling like I am comfortable there.

    The other big problem can be the way power is delivered by the Cosworth DFV. As we've seen in many other sims (predominantly in the Lotus 49) the power delivery around 4500-5000 RPM is like a grenade and if you're hopping over a crest at that point you're going to spin things up.

    As mentioned in a previous post, on some tracks it will be very rare to find full throttle too often.

    Seems prudent to me that more travel and stronger springs would be beneficial yes, followed by careful slow damper setup. Higher and stiffer, though mileage may vary with ARB stiffness.

    Note of course also that these were the very cars that had the Nordschleife removed from the F1 calendar due to the inherent dangers of driving them there. :eek:

    Good luck out there.

    (Sorry for the long and boring post).
     
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  8. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Front lowering makes a difference into fast braking zones, try out by yourself, you get a lot of turn in.
    Softened ARB and Springs make the cars worse in controlability in switchy sections, where you have to take many corners at once. Also it becomes worse over dips, elevations and crests.
    This was down to weather and failing cars, to a big amount, though.
    We will speak about that again, and maybe see more reports about frustration with these cars, when the NoS has released for AMS2, i would bet a little coke without ice on that.
     
  9. shrapnel

    shrapnel New Member

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    I agree, but is that because of weight balance or aero? Hard to tell, the other question is whether the aero load leads to full compression or not. Which is why I'd like to see telemetry.

    Yep, I've only tested really at Kyalami so far. I am not sure I will run these cars on any non-historic tracks.

    The chicane at Kyalami has been fine for me. I should add that really I have found the car far more compliant in general being softer than the default setup offers. I think personal driving style comes into this too.

    The very idea sends shivers down the spine :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  10. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    It doesn't help in slow corners so it's very likely to be front aero variation.
    Also managing aero with wing and rake definetly made some difference in my laptimes on Spielberg Historic.
    It's not even necessary to try it on non-historic tracks. Spielberg Historic second to last corner and Interlagos Historic left kink with the dip on start/finish straight and good luck. ;)
    Why? I think it's very important, that feedback is provided, tbh.^^
    - addition:
    With the BT44 you shouldn't be on throttle at all, when going even over slight crests, just speaking of start finish straight at Interlagos Historic or second to last corner on Spielberg Historic. Over the Mountain at Bath Rust Mount Paranoia (Thanks to the one guy in this forum, writing this, i stole it, sorry :D ) it's a delicious task.
     
  11. shrapnel

    shrapnel New Member

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    The very idea [of driving these cars at Nords]....
     
  12. InfernalVortex

    InfernalVortex Active Member

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    So that leads me to my next big question... what tracks are you guys liking with these? So far I feel like an "AMS 2 season" for Formula Retro would look something like...

    1. Brands Hatch
    2. Interlagos (crazy version)
    3. Kyalami 76
    4. Kansai GP
    5. Imola 72
    6. Ibarra (I just love this track, it definitely feels old school and seems to have the right atmosphere and doesn't get enough love.)
    7. Spielberg historic
    8. Nordschleife (I would be super excited to have a historic version with the Sudkehre!)
    9. Hockenheim historic (when available)
    10. Silverstone historic (Is there going to be a historic version of that?)

    I ask because it'd be nice to get an idea what tracks I can optimize for and stay more or less period correct. I was surprised to see so many lap times at Bathurst for these on the TT boards... and none at Kansai. Suzuka has been mostly unchanged for 50 years... it definitely fits the era.
     
  13. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Should be doable. If not, something is clearly wrong. I mean, it doesn't have to be easy, but as soon, as it becomes undriveable over every slight dip, it will become obvious. The kerbs of the recent NoS are basically similar to the one in the 70's. You can practice them by driving Kyalami :D
     
  14. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Try Oulton Park Classic version, Brands Hatch and Curvelo short. Something special on that. Cascavel and Taruma might also deliver some fun.

    Ibarra is awesome with everything, that has wheels :D
     
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  15. shrapnel

    shrapnel New Member

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    Yep, perfectly do-able. I've driven the Lotus 49 there in a sim so the 72 should be more stable than that.

    I was just using a little hyperbole, apologies. :)
     
  16. alink

    alink Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Confirm, it wasn't easy in real life and it shouldn't be easy in AMS. But having (the feeling of) aquaplaning on a light damp track with rain tires is a little bit too much.
    I was running at Estoril and I let the car rolling on the back straight, it was wet, and suddenly the car turned around and I hit the barriers. No chance to avoid. Cornering, is difficult but controlable, braking the same, but accelerating on a straight, and it doesn't matter if full throttle or not, the back of the car gets round without any chance of avoiding. I tried different LSD settings because I thought it's because one side looses grip and the otherside still have and I could fix this issue with higher LSD. But it didn't help. Doing the same in lowering LSD, not really a difference.
    I really can't compare this rain behauvior with any other car. I'm driving much in rain because I always use random weather and the chance of rain is about 90% (it seems that Reiza loves raining :) otherwise they programmed another random weather generator...).
    Sure, the rain tires weren't the best that time, but they should have a positive effect compared to unprofiled tires under damp, wet or flooded conditions.
     
  17. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Not for that, mate :D

    My (totally speculative) point was about the expectation, that with this behaviour over dips, the cars could be a big PITA on the Nordschleife, you always get a hint of that on Bathurst over the mountain, which is basically "Schwedenkreuz", "Hohe Acht", "Sprunghügel" and "Pflanzgarten" all at once in a small section...
     
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  18. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Administrator Staff Member AMS2 Club Member

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    You can try to raise the suspension and making the car a bit softer, does it change anything? I can't test right now...
     
  19. shrapnel

    shrapnel New Member

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    Ah yes. Well, tbh I am not sure I am having as much of a problem with the way the car is over crests as you seem to be (though I note from the Kylami TT board your pace isn't struggling!). Next time I head out on Osterreichring or Interlagos I will think more about it whether it is an overall issue with tyre load sensitivity and maybe form an opinion on it.
     
  20. alink

    alink Well-Known Member AMS2 Club Member

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    Same to me, maybe on thursday next time for testing...
     

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