Gamepad Support - Analysis, Suggestions, Wishes

Let's leave the theory and go to practice.

With gamepad, what other simulator allows you to go like this with such a fast car (Formula USA 23) on such a complicated and narrow circuit (Cadwell), with cockpit view, for 10 laps in a row at such a strong pace?

 

@maitevel Give it a rest m8. Nice times, good for you, but there's no need to keep posting about how great you are. This isn't about how good, or bad for that matter, one person can be on a gamepad.

We are not saying you can't drive and be competitive with gamepad, we are saying the overall gamepad UX and features are substandard in comparison to AMS1 (Reiza's declared benchmark) and other current racing sims. It can be better, a lot lot better.
It was also actually promised by Reiza that it would be, and is in fact stated as a goal on the AMS2 FAQ.

For example, the haptic feedback and vibration implementation is - to put it lightly - a terrible implementation, as it's just the base PC2 system which is complete rubbish to begin with.
You might not care, many fast drivers don't even use haptics/vibration even on wheels, but for the rest of us who do it can add immeasurable value to the sim experience. Having this in other top sims makes the experience in AMS2 a letdown by comparison, despite the breadth and depth of the content itself. A great input and haptic feedback system (wheel, gamepad, or otherwise) enhances the content immeasurably (and the games value btw), not detracts from it.

Other substandard areas are the settings and configuration system.

There are also human factors reasons for this. People have a wide range of physical ability and learnable skills, and good input systems are designed with this in mind.

ACC, EA WRC, Beam NG, - even AMS1 - all prove this with fantastic gamepad experiences that cater gamepad users specifically, not just pay lip service like AMS2 does.

I love AMS2, truly. I've been with it from the start of the beta, where in fact I raised this issue before buying in a pre-sales question and it was acknowledged that it would be done.

It's just disappointing that it's been studiously ignored over the last 4 years.
Especially so since it has such great content that can't be experienced in the best way possible with current gamepad technology and input system design.

A great case study here is ACC. Gamepad also used to be rubbish. Around V1.8 they made the decision, rightly, to do it properly and it transformed a similar frustrating sub-optimal racing gamepad experience into something great, and it's only gotten better with subsequent releases. Ditto for EA WRC. It gets a lot of criticism (totally unwarranted) and it's got a great gamepad system. It FEELS great to drive it, whatever the type of driver you are.

 

I too was annoyed not only by the fact that the gamepad support never received any proper work or fixes (considering that many problems present in pCars 2, and therefore AMS2, were fixed in pCars 3), but also never received due consideration by the developers. If, for any reason, it can't be done, at least say so and put it to rest. No, simply indifference.

Therefore I did the only thing I had left as a customer: leave a negative product review on Steam, stating the problem. I really didn't like this option, but unfortunately I think it's the only resort left to make the issue heard or, at the very least, discourage other gamepad simracers from falling into the same pit.
(so far I have saved a couple people, judging by some feedback on the review)

 

WOW THE LATEST DEV BLOG IS AMAZING THEY'RE FINALLY GOING TO FIX THE GAMEPAD SYSTEM...oh, wait, I was dreaming. Never mind!

Gotta say though, the gamepad haptics in ACC atm are superbly done.
Pity it's all tintop racing though!

 

The joke going around is that improved gamepad support will come after the career mode update and before the console release.

 

I love how they can't stop fiddling with "THE FIZZIKS" to satisfy some Sisyphean urge to poke at virtual rubber, yet they have one of the worst gamepad implementations of all the current sims ( and untouched since alpha) but that's OK!

 

I suppose it's the right order - finish physics and then adjust controller behaviour. Otherwise the gamepad implementation would need changing over and over again with every iteration wasting scarce dev resources.

 

Although I think the latest physics changes have made cars more predictable and more fun to drive I don't think gamepad implementation would need changing if it's done properly.
AMS1 had haptic feedback added later in development but the basics like good controller response and being able to fully customize sensitivity and filters were there from day 1, there was no need to change anything after physics updates. I got ACC a few years ago and it didn't need any controller changes even though there were several physics adjustments over the years, same goes for R3E.
Having proper controller response and haptic feedback from day 1 would make it easier for controller players to adapt to physics changes imo.
Also, considering that in a development team people have their specific roles (eg: people who create content don't work on multiplayer or coding the AI) we have to take into account that people who work on physics might not be the same people who work on gamepad implementation, so that would counter the "wasting dev resources" argument.

 

That doesn't mean their time can be wasted by constant changes from other departments.

Renato confirmed that they are running out of low hanging fruits and now dev cycles will be longer, which suggests to me that controller implementation isn't easy in Madness Engine or it's just further down the queue to do once and for all. And any changes to physics could jeopardize the efforts.

I don't know the development intricacies of Madness Engine to know for sure the exact reasons, but if Reiza haven't done it so far there must be a good reason.

 

I can totally understand that. This whole issue is so weird and bizarre that there must definitely be a specific reason behind it. However, what annoys me is that they won't communicate to us about it. As I said in an earlier post, just say what stops you from having better gamepad implementation and if we can expect any development about it down the line, and that's it really.
This blatant lack of communication of what would be 3-5 lines of words on their part just exacerbates the situation.

 

I'm struggling to find another developer that is so approachable and communicative with their community. Accusing Reiza for lack of communication is just wrong.
I suppose until they get to the bottom of it and are in position they can communicate they will. Otherwise people will find a post from a while back and @ Renato venting their frustration it's not done yet.

They're doomed if they do and if they don't.

 

@stealthradek
It's plain you have very limited knowledge of the history of this particular issue, which goes back to even before beta release.

I suggest you scroll back to the beginning of this thread (Dated Sept 3, 2020) and read every post to get up to speed. This is about critical core input functionality that was specifically promised it would be a part of the sim, to at least the standard of AMS1 gamepad input and beyond.

Instead, crickets. Every.Single.Time.It's.Brought.Up.

Meanwhile, every other racing sim (track, dirt, or mixed) recognized the critical nature of the gamepad experience and implemented great gamepad input systems that provide (generally) a great driving experience with good configuration and quality haptics linked to surface dynamics. These are not your crappy old gamepads, the tech improved years ago, and many people use them for many different reasons instead of wheels.

Dirt Rally 2? Check (just reinstalled this due to EA WRC issues)
EA WRC? Check (if you can get it to run after V1.9)
WRC Kylo? Check
ACC? Check
AC? Check
BeamNG? Check
RF2? Check
AMS1? hahah, of course, Check.
[insert here]

AMS2? Not even recognition of any of the issues raised over the last 4+ YEARS. That's what @leon_90 (and others) are referring to about lack of communication regarding this issue.

It's just bizarre. I recognize there might be implementation difficulties, but this is a solved problem in other sims, there are developers that know how to do this. They have the engine code. It's not an impossible task. Unless, of course, you just don't want to do it, I guess.

The fizziks reached a high enough standard quite a while back to torpedo the argument that fizziks was the bottleneck. You'll always have to adjust input systems as things progress anyway, as they do already for wheels, and as every other sim does as well.

It's not rocket science, it's software engineering.
And managing customer expectations (or not, in this case), driven by marketing.

tl;dr: PC2 gamepad input system was/is the pits, and nothing has been done to change that, despite people asking for this (and it being promised) since before beta.

See also [and others you can search for]:
https://forum.reizastudios.com/threads/gamepad-settings.8837/

 

I'm not saying it's unimportant or it's not been mentioned/requested.

It's plain you have very limited knowledge of software development as you keep mentioning other pieces of software that have it implemented like Reiza could copy/paste it to AMS2.

What may be easy solution in one game, can be a real pain in the other. I suspect the controller implementation sits under the latter in Madness Engine. Ever inherited piece of software written by somebody else and tried to make changes to fit your vision?

A good parallel would be the F1 car development, you may try to copy the solutions from other competitors, but it often takes a while for it to properly work, or even is a step back once the new wing is on your car.

You may dislike my posts as much as you like but that's the reality I'm trying to shed some light on. It may not look like a rocket science, but it's not far off.

 

Myself i would be very happy, with some feedback, vibration, haptic feedback etc, etc that would do for starters.

 

>>It's plain you have very limited knowledge of software development as you keep mentioning other pieces of software that have it implemented like Reiza could copy/paste it to AMS2.

Only 30+ years SWE experience across multiple domains, including games and including input systems in both flight sims and simracing.

Don't put words into my mouth either. I didn't say "copy/paste" at all, but any SWE with experience in the area knows the algorithms can be ported over into different engines and languages. Is it easy? Depends. But it's NOT impossible when the solution is proven and the developer has the experience to make it happen.

I disliked your posts (now changed to creative) because it's plain you are totally unaware of the history of this issue, making it out to be as if it's bunch of dumb noobs complaining about Reiza being uncommunicative. We're not, and the issue is a long standing bug bear with many gamepad users of AMS2.

This was a promised feature, it is even prominent in the AMS2 FAQ.
Instead, every time it's raised over the last 4+ years we've just been ghosted in terms of any feedback as to why this isn't being implemented.
It's not just terrible from failing to deliver on a promised feature perspective (it's been over 4 years!!!), it's terrible from a customer management perspective.

And it really does impact the quality of the AMS2 driving experience on gamepad.
That's objective when it's put up against any of its peer sims, whether they might be a competitor or not (there's room for all tbh).

It just saddens me more than anything that Reiza thinks it's not even an issue, when AMS2 could be so much more with the gamepad experience being done properly.
It would add more value than half the stuff being currently worked on, because the sim is "good enough" as it is. I honestly couldn't give a toss about most of the stuff in V1.6, except for maybe [insert really cool track I know that's in it but can't say atm because norformedia but you probably know anyway what it is].

I currently use dxAce to make it a little better, but even that is a bit lame compared to when it's implemented properly. As a result, I rarely even boot AMS2 up anymore. I'll probably give 1.6 a play when it's released, but that won't last long I guess.

 

Cool, I know nothing, you know everything. Peace.

I'm off to educate myself and to read the entire forum because reasons. I should be done before controller implementation anyway

 

No, you just know nothing about this issue - which is plain from the assumptions you make in some of your arguments.
I never implied anything more, so don't make it out as if I did thanks.

Have a nice day.

*waves at Reiza*

 

The funny thing is, this problem (bad gamepad implementation) was actually solved in PCars3! That's what is wild about the issue. True, pCars3 implementation still isn't perfect, but it is miles above what was in pCars2 (and thus AMS2). The SMS lead game dev himself stated publicly that they worked on it and pretty much fixed it back when they were working on the game.
This shows, despite what Stealth says, that the issue can and was actually fixed in this engine. Plus, Reiza worked, and still does, closely with pCars devs, now migrated with Bell into whatever new project he's working on today. It's a two way line of communication they have. They could simply ask "how did you fix it?" and implement the fix. Done. Then, work to improve it. Instead the whole situation is stuck in the pCars2 scenario.

That's why I say that this is so bizarre. There must be something going on behind the scene. Because the fix is possible, already developed and up for grabs by Reiza, and yet it doesn't happen. Silence throughout. This whole thing is bewildering in and by itself.

 

There is some projection happening here. What adds more value compared to something else is not an objective decision, it's a subjective one. I for one think the visual, audio and physics improvements for 1.6 are significantly more important than the introduction of haptic gamepad support (which is traditionally only useful for gauging wheelspin, but you can do that visually, too). To me, that's one of the more "nice to have" instead of essential controller features. That's just me, tho.
I also don't think the 1.5 physics are anywhere close to "good" (more in the realms of "serviceable").

There's also no need for Renato to explain why it's not done currently: We all know why, the dev team is focused elsewhere.

You can make the point that the gamepad market is quite significant and good controller support would be a wise decision business-wise. Alas that argument also goes for any and all DLC content, which immediately grants economic results.

We also don't know what the decision really was: We don't know which people are even able to program something related to gamepad inputs and what they are currently working on instead (I suspect the new UI, btw).

Gamepad support only adds any value for a part of the userbase, so there is that to take into consideration, too. Also, AMS2 is clearly a passion project heavily catered to the lead developer's own interests. It's surely not just a coincidence we have any and all Senna McLarens in the game, or that there are zero Tilke tracks You may expect decisions that only make sense from a subjective viewpoint.

In my personal opinion, haptic gamepad support would be essential if the game ever released on consoles. Currently there's no reason to bother because controller implementation is fundamentally not good anyway: The defaults are catered to people that can't drive at all and heavily limit everyone that can (which is completely backwards for a hardcore sim), the settings are confusing and not explained anywhere but in forum posts by other controller players, and there are some pesky bugs with the controller profiles. All in all, to be a gamepad player on AMS2 is a DIY challenge.

They haven't yet started to focus on controller players in a way that could be seen as serious. I hope they do after 1.6, after all that will most likely make the game more popular and it is a more relaxed, cheaper way to play. But I understand why they wanted to put areas that cater to every user instead of only a portion of them first, and why a simulation developer may focus more on wheels in the first place.

 

That just made me roll my eyes.

Why? It's been over 4 years for a basic input system.

My snark about V1.6 is because we've been seeing that for the last 4 years.
It'll come after v1!
No wait, 1.1.
Waiiiiiiiiit..1.2!
1.3 it's sure to be in!
no, 1.4 it's a definite!
1.5 for sure.
No, they had to twiddle the fizziks a bit more, definitely after 1.6, I can feel it.

Lets not even mention all the interim point versions, also with zero mention of "better than AMS1 gamepad".

smh

You can make all the excuses you want, but the bottom line is it's just been brushed off despite being promised as part of the feature set. 1 year, sure. 2 years, ok, well, maybe soon. 3 years. wtf is going on. 4 years. Give me a break.

"the dev team is focused elsewhere"

lol

Fine, I'll play other racing sims that cater to all the users, not just a subset.
Many PC players use gamepad btw, it's not "just a console thing".

Not sure why you call yourself a "gamepad ambassador" btw, when you're basically going out of your way to make excuses for them to continue ignoring it!

I'll be surprised if Kunos ignores this aspect of AC Evo, especially after the work they put into reforming the gamepad input in ACC, that turned it from bland AMS2 gamepad experience into a very nice gamepad tintop driving experience. They Know!