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Gearshift Debounce option?

Discussion in 'Automobilista 2 - General Discussion' started by toniware, Apr 1, 2020.

  1. alink

    alink Active Member

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    with formula classic it does happen. For shifting I use buttons. In real life such cars have a h-pattern transmission so the drive feels in which gear he will change (for example left front is normaly 1st gear, middle back is 4th and right front is 5th). But with buttons I can't feel it. So with an extra button to swith into neutral like it was in AMS1 would be the best
     
  2. Goffik

    Goffik Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I just tried the F Classics and I see what you mean. It seems to happen with any car that has an h-box, as it happens in the Chevette too. I guess the neutral protection feature isn't enabled for H-box cars. I'm wondering if it would bork the functioning of actual H-boxes if they added it?
     
  3. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    I ignored @alink's message because both cars he referred to were H-pattern, not sequentials...

    Why would we expect H-pattern transmissions to work like sequentials? If you have to use buttons or what-not because you don't have an H-pattern shifter (or prefer not to use one), then you'll have to expect it to be unrealistic since the whole effort is unrealistic to begin with. Reiza needs to program the cars to work properly with the correct hardware and provide a "back door" for people who do not have the correct hardware. They should not waste time trying to program every possible combination and permutation (in my opinion, of course).
     
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  4. Goffik

    Goffik Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, if Reiza did follow that logic then they shouldn't waste their time adding TC, ABS and other aids on any of the cars that don't have them in real life either. I would think adding a neutral lock on h-box cars when using sequential shifters is considerably quicker and easier than making those aids work with every car in the sim.

    Fortunately, developers tend to try and cater for as many different people as possible, including those who can't afford peripherals that barely get used, and those who choose not to use them. :)

    (For reference, I do have an h-box and I do use use it occasionally, but not in F1 cars.)
     
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  5. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    How does Reiza/AMS 2 know which controller you are using? It cannot, which is why it is programmed for the correct controller, with back-up for those without.
     
  6. Cliff

    Cliff Member

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    what, you can’t count or something? Want to go from 5th to 1st then you only have to press 4 times. Pretty simple.
     
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  7. MarcG

    MarcG Active Member Reiza Backer

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    General "Double-Shifts" whether via software or User (done it myself plenty of times) do happen, whilst the argument for "it should be in the Gear Shifts Software" is one angle to the other it doesn't work for every Shifter out there, I have an SHH Shifter that shows up simply as a 'usb gamepad' in Windows Controllers Options so there is no Software to accompany it.

    So regardless of whether the issue is Software or User, an Option in the Settings (in game...) is required, other Sims do it like this;

    RF2 (player.json):
    "Repeat Shifts":3,
    "Repeat Shifts#":"0 = no repeat shift detection, 1 = detect and eliminate accidental repeat shifts within 100ms, 2 = 150ms, 3 = 200ms, 4 = 250ms, 5 = prevent shifting again before previous shift is completed",

    RaceRoom:
    An in Game Setting (!) entitled "Double Shift Protection"(set the duration in which a second input is ignored) i.e. 0.03s

    LFS:
    As detailed in the Opening Post.

    Something similar to this in AMS2 would be the answer in this situation with regards to accidental double-shifting as per the OP query.
     
  8. alink

    alink Active Member

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    you are right, to get a real feel I will buy a StockCar V8 when I want to drive a StockCar, I buy an end 60s, mid + end 80s, start + mid 90s formula 1 car, several GoKarts, Catherhams, Trucks from each brand, ....., just if I want to drive another car. He, I only have > 90sqm to live, sleep, eat, a garden and a garage, where to place all these cars??? There isn't enough space.
    Nevertheless, in the end it's a multi racing simulation game and you can not expect that everybody has the needed equipment (because it will be a never ending list) to get experience like in real life. So if you have a h-shifter, well done, I don't have one. But I have 3 pedals, are you sure that everybody has also 3 pedals? I don't think so. In this case, it must be possible to drive without a clutch pedal, and it is possible.
    @Cliff: sure, I can count. I know that from 5th to 1st there are 4 shifts neccessary-:) But without an gear indicator or that I can see the position of the gear lever (like it was in GPL see attachment) I'm not always sure which gear is selected and how many shifts I have to do. And then, suddenly, you stuck in neutral. Or it happens because there's a double shifting (then it doesn't matter if you can count or not...)
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Goffik

    Goffik Well-Known Member

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    I generally like your posts mate, because they're informative and usually backed up by good information. But in this case it feels like you're being deliberately obtuse, for reasons unknown.

    There are thousands of games out there which have zero difficulty in detecting exactly what controller a player is using. That includes other current sims on the market. Once detected, they apply default settings such as axis/button assignments, FFB settings, and even sensitivity and curve adjustments in some cases. Given that it's a standard feature of numerous controller-driven games, it clearly is not something which is difficult to do. All a game has to do is ask WINDOWS, which is simplicity itself. But I'm pretty sure you already know that, despite your comments.

    We're all entitled to our own options, that's true. If yours is that Reiza should be as unaccommodating as possible to all those who can't afford or don't want certain peripherals, then that's fine. My own is that if Reiza want to maintain their fan-friendly reputation and sell as many copies of their latest sim as possible, they should probably spent a little time trying to be as accommodating as possible to all play styles, even non-wheel users. Other sims have done it, so they should too.
     
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  10. Cliff

    Cliff Member

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    Just use the lite HUB speed and gear indicator.
     
  11. alink

    alink Active Member

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    yes I know. But using HUD is something absolut unrealistc which I don't want to do (except telemetry in practice, but no HUD in race). That's something I've never done in 25+ years. Maybe I assign the gears to the numpad of the keyboard for direkt input as I did in NASCAR Racing 2003 Season. But in NASCAR, shifting is hardly done, so it didn't matter if the use of all devices was complicated.
    And here is exactly the point: How to assign neutral gear position!!!! -:)
    Gear 1 to 6 (why not 8?) is possible, but not N (!!!)
     
  12. Cliff

    Cliff Member

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    Well, you're taking liberties with realism and then saying the gear/speed HUD is unrealistic. Maybe use SimHUB to output your gears to a smartphone?

    The GPL cockpit is obviously unrealistic but done like that for a visual clue. Save up and get an H shifter if realism is so important to you, at least that's a step in the right direction in that regard.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  13. fischhaltefolie

    fischhaltefolie Active Member Reiza Backer

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    ... and besides loadcell brakepedal it's the thing I'd never give up in simracing.
     
  14. alink

    alink Active Member

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    As I said, the best is to buy a real car of each type which is in AMS2 to get the best performance and experience. But unfortunatly, I don't have enough space and maybe I will run short of money.
    It's only the idea to use the simulation with the equipment I, you and others have in the best way. Of course, everybody can invest in more and better equipment to get better experience.
    If REIZA don't change anything in this point, then, of course, a H shifter makes sense.
    What kind of shifter do you suggest? Any special (please not the most expensive, but also no plastic only), thanks in advance.
     
  15. alink

    alink Active Member

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    And by the way, were off topic -:)
    The original issue, double up-/down- shifting, is still unsolved....
     
  16. vortex

    vortex Member

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    I disagree. Debouncing options are incorporated into other sims and reduce this issue at a stroke.
     
  17. NuScorpii

    NuScorpii Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'll change my view on this. In an ideal world debouncing would be taken care of in the firmware / drivers, but as it obviously isn't and won't be for some hardware it is a useful feature to have.

    It would be good if something like Joy2Key could incorporate it and then there would be a workaround for all hardware for all sims.
     
  18. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Well-Known Member Reiza Backer

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    You have misread (or ignored) my reply and are listening to @alink's response instead. I specifically noted that lots of people will not have the exact equipment for every type of shifter (or even have a clutch pedal as noted). That's why a "back door" option is required to supplement the proper operation of various shifting techniques. Auto-clutch solves the lack of clutch pedal and several work-arounds are needed for the shifters:
    • Allow sequential shifting, likely with some time delay or clunkiness for people who do not have an h-pattern shifter because it would not be fair to allow perfectly smooth and fast digital clutchless sequential shifting of a h-pattern car when there are people using an actual h-pattern and clutch pedal with all the slowness and opportunity for errors that accompany it
    • Let people use paddles instead of sequential stick or vice versa
    • Etc.
    The request to allow h-pattern shifting of a sequential car is a special one. First, it's a dumb idea unless the person has no paddles or sequential stick because it is more difficult and slower than the real technique. But assuming someone has a good reason to do it, as I acknowledged in my reply, it is a bit rich to ask for a key design element of the operation of the real transmission to be sabotaged or eliminated to suit this bizarre request.

    And no, there is not a way to do this only for the select people who want to use some atypical technique. The game is NOT capable of knowing which technique is being used, only which hardware is attached. I have all three shifter types (Fanatec), but whether I am using paddles on my wheel, sequential stick or H-pattern is completely invisible to the sim. The same hardware is always attached and all shift-related mappings are simultaneously active at all times. This is also true in iRacing and rF2 and R3E. This is not unique to Fanatec (although they make it very convenient). There are apps that allow overlapping usage of mappings used widely in sim racing circles.

    So, I am delighted if people disagree with or have alternative opinions or perspectives, but please actually understand what I said and check your facts before falsely implying that my goal is to restrict people from doing what they need to do in AMS 2. What I said and meant is that Reiza should not ruin the realism for the rest of us due to requests to apply non-standard programming for some tiny majority who want to use a bizarre shifting approach for some odd reason. You cannot remove the N and R lock-outs in the sequential transmission for one user without removing it for all at the same time. And I don't want it removed, which was the point of my reply.
     

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